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Why can't Amazon protect you from Bitcoin mining on your account?

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Re: Why can't Amazon protect you from Bitcoin mining on your account?

#11
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the statement "Amazon doesn't have access to the data on the instance" totally wrong? How can you 'not have access' to the data on a VM you're personally running? Your answer (3) makes sense, but wouldn't these people opt in to lift this limit? I can think of few such applications that someone would elect to run on Amazon without knowing it in advance. do people really do (4) on amazon's hardware? (instead of t…

Amazon EC2 is HIPAA compliant. As such, it has specific restrictions in place. Quoting from http://d36cz9buwru1tt.cloudfront.net/AWS_HIPAA_Whitepaper_Fi... : > For Amazon EC2, AWS employees do not look at customer data, do not have access to customer EC2 instances, and cannot log into the guest operating system. AWS internal security controls limit data access. Yes, since they have physical access to the machines, it…

Thanks (upvoted.) This was the answer to my question, thank you. It is interesting though that per the original write-up at

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8817299

"When I woke up the next morning, I had four emails from Amazon AWS and a missed phone call from Amazon AWS."

So Amazon clearly did have some very clear fraud signals.

I agree with you that my lack of knowledge isn't a guide, which is why I phrased it in the form of a question and asked HN. Your current comment is in fact the only actual (and perfectly sufficient) answer.

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EDIT: regarding 4), out of curiosity, if they could legally and were allowed to tell programmatically if miner proceses were running and stop these for you, would you want them to? [preauthorize them to check and not allow it unless/until you lift this]. I would do so personally, as an added measure of security simply due to the incentive people have to steal my keys for this reason, and the fact that as a practical matter it does happen - as in the write-up, in which a .gitignore was ignored.

>so I installed the Figaro gem (a rails API key security gem), and trusted it to keep my API key off of git when I pushed. I opened the console and git push origin master to send the new version of my app, Shriek to Heroku.

>Figaro pops up on the command line as usual, but this time instead of saying “created application.yml, created .gitignore” It just said “created application.yml”.

It certainly sounds like something that could happen to me, or anyone, and does every day. but it sounds like you would not opt in to this? just curious.

Re: Why can't Amazon protect you from Bitcoin mining on your account?

#12
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon EC2 is HIPAA compliant. As such, it has specific restrictions in place. Quoting from http://d36cz9buwru1tt.cloudfront.net/AWS_HIPAA_Whitepaper_Fi... : > For Amazon EC2, AWS employees do not look at customer data, do not have access to customer EC2 instances, and cannot log into the guest operating system. AWS internal security controls limit data access. Yes, since they have physical access to the machines, it…

Thanks (upvoted.) This was the answer to my question, thank you. It is interesting though that per the original write-up at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8817299 "When I woke up the next morning, I had four emails from Amazon AWS and a missed phone call from Amazon AWS." So Amazon clearly did have some very clear fraud signals. I agree with you that my lack of knowledge isn't a guide, which is why I phrased it…

Accounting signature changes - eg, starting a large number of machines - is different than inspecting the VM. That alone could be the source of the fraud signals.

My software works with proprietary chemical structures. I would not want Amazon's scanners looking at it. I want to be able to tell potential customers/clients that it's secure.

A signal for unexpected charges (based on past history), combined with a generous waiver policy, which seems to be the case now, is all I need.

Re: Why can't Amazon protect you from Bitcoin mining on your account?

#13
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yes, you can become liable for failure to do what you said you would do. That's what secondary liability means. If you check for certain usage patterns, but there's a 10% chance of failure, then will 10% of that customer base sue you for not doing the job you said you will do? Remember, you've started with the premise that there is a clear signal. Certainly it's possible to tweak any SHA calculation enough to c…

obviously, the benefit is that they are not then out all that computing power! (for which they refund fees at a 100% loss.) I would think their gross profit isn't all that high - certainly not nearly 100% where they can do these refunds without a second thought or loss to them. it's like asking, if a store refunds things stolen from you, what is their incentive to reduce this theft? well, obviously, the fact that aft…

Have you tried to estimate their profit or gross margin?

I think it's wrong to analyze this as stolen goods. It's an opportunity cost. Unless they are fully utilized, the cost is power, cooling, and depreciation on the hardware. Not the market price of what that CPU time would have been sold for. Based on http://www.geekwire.com/2014/heres-startup-dumped-amazon-web... the internal cost might be 50% or even less than market price.

You have a habit of positing that because you wouldn't do something means that others wouldn't as well. You can sue a bank for acting in bad faith, which "does not necessarily involve furtive or evil motives, but has a commercial sense of disregard of and refusal to learn the facts when available; and that the circumstances and conditions may be so cogent and obvious that to remain passive amounts to bad faith" - http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ky-court-of-appeals/1496975.html#... .

Bear in mind that it's very difficult to extrapolate from a regulated bank to an unregulated company. there are also a lot of banking laws put into place define exactly what bad faith means. For example, it used to be that you were liable for stolen credit card misuse until the time it was reported. The law changed to limit your liability, which placed more emphasis on the bank to do fraud detection.

The parallel here is obvious; if as a matter of principle they decided to assume 100% liability, then this gives them inventive to improve fraud detection, which can be done through things like usage analysis. While assuming no liability gives them less inventive to go after fraud. If Amazon wants happy customers, then great service helps - no principle needed.

(In addition, the US government requires additional reporting and oversight of your bank account. For example, the bank can be in trouble if they decline to notice a pattern of structuring your transactions to be under the $10,000 reporting limit to the government.)

Re: Why can't Amazon protect you from Bitcoin mining on your account?

#14
post #2

keeping your credentials safe instead of relying on amazon sounds a lot easier to me

It's not either/or is it? This is something that is one of the biggest incentives to steal credentials: it is immediate, untraceable cash. (bitcoin.) your argument is like saying a daily withdrawal limit (like $500) you can lift at any time isn't sane, because "keep your card and PIN safe" sounds a lot easier. Well, yes, but the point is your card/pin can (and does) get stolen, and so do Amazon credentials. I just do…

I wasn't making an argument but I see where you are coming from. with your bank card analogy, at least here in Ireland there is no liability on the account holder for theft or fraud anymore so even if you don't keep those things safe the bank takes the hit. That seems to be the strategy amazon is taking at the moment, if that gets too expensive for them i am sure they will invest in another layer of protection. Now that I think about it it also seems like this is an opportunity to win the loyalty of a customer. By contacting them, explaining the problem and the solution and then by waiving potentially large charges from their account without hassle they are garnering a lot of trust. Just a random thought that popped into my head
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