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On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

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Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#11

Post by jacobolus »

On one of the previous threads about this topic, someone suggested that accepting H1-B applicants in order from higher to lower salaries instead of based on a lottery would clear up a lot of the lottery spots that currently go to the below-market-wage-indentured-servant type shops to be used for more deserving companies and applicants.

Seems like a solid change to me, without an obvious downside. (But I am not an expert and haven’t done any detailed analysis, so maybe this would have negative consequences I’m not anticipating.)

Another change that might be a big improvement, it seems to me, is to let H1-B visa holders more easily change jobs once they’re here, without so much risk or paperwork hoops to jump through. If it were easier for H1-B workers to switch jobs, then abusive employers would have less leverage to exploit them (forced overtime, below-market wages, etc.).

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#12

Post by bradleyjg »

jacobolus wrote: post #11

On one of the previous threads about this topic, someone suggested that accepting H1-B applicants in order from higher to lower salaries instead of based on a lottery would clear up a lot of the lottery spots that currently go to the below-market-wage-indentured-servant type shops to be used for more deserving companies and applicants. Seems like a solid change to me, without an obvious downside. (But I am not an exp…

As much as it may sometimes seem like it is, the H1-B isn't a programming or IT visa. It's applicable to a wide range of specialty occupations, across the entire nation. The suggested change would block out virtually all applicants from many other professions.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#13

Post by joshAg »

I think one way to fix the trust issue outlined here would be not tying the H1B visa to a specific job, but instead giving it for a defined period of time, eg 5 years, and not making it dependent on the employer.

I know at least a few people on H1B visas who celebrated getting a green card with 2 weeks notice and a nice $20k/year raise to do the exact same job at a competitor.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#14

Post by hw »

Instead of a 'shortage of workers', the situation should be more adeptly described as a 'shortage of skilled workers'. I do think there are tech workers floating around, but the really good ones are hard to come by. Extending immigration helps, but does not solve it, as only a bunch of the pool are actually good talent.

Maybe immigration needs to be tweaked to help filter down the pool even more, for example, raising the minimum H1B wage for its skill levels. A disparity in the minimum wage only enables companies to bring in workers that are 'meh' and only pay the minimum cause it's cheap labor, albeit not top talent.

Question for the anti-immigration folks is, if immigration was reduced or stopped entirely, would that necessarily result in higher wages for everyone else? Are talented engineers really not being able to find a job that wants to pay what they want? Are the decent, run-of-the-mill engineers not able to find a job that pays market or slightly below market? Would companies then outsource even more anyway?

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#15

Post by michaelochurch »

sosuke wrote: post #2

Just on the subject of programmer salaries, I was talking with someone who had much more experience in the computing industry than myself and he pointed out something I'd never known. He said that programmer salaries from pre-bubble days was six-figures, and that we're still in that range, and not higher is proof that salaries have been kept low. Six-figures today is not what six-figures was worth in 1998. Inflation…

What seems to be happening is that Silicon Valley wages are flat or down (relative to 1998) but the rest of the country is improving. There actually is good news here, though it might seem otherwise if one takes a Valley-centric approach.

In 1998, software engineers in the Midwest generally didn't make six figures. $70,000 was a strong salary for a mid-career (5-10 years) engineer. The $100-140k figures were limited to the Bay Area and New York (around Wall Street) and possibly Chicago (also finance).

In 2014, engineers in the Bay Area have lost ground relative to the housing market, and have lost social position relative to well-connected "serial founders" and investors... but on the other hand, you can now work in any of the top ~20 hubs and make 80-95% of what you'd make in the Bay Area.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#16

Post by gsibble »

This whole set of lies really makes me angry. Ever notice how it's only the most powerful of powerful who complain about "talent shortage"? Those who have the most to gain from reducing technology salaries? Sure, you might hear about it being a competitive market with high salaries and all, but that's what it's supposed to be! Engineering talent is in high demand and salaries are supposed to go up!

If anything, they aren't going up enough. Programer's salaries as a whole have stayed nearly even since 1992 [1]. Furthermore, profit margins in the technology sector are remarkably high with very little spent on HR compared to another highly profitable sector: banking. Highly skilled STEM graduates frequently choose to go into finance because they can make more over a longer career without a cap on their income. The ratio of revenue to HR costs at tech companies and finance companies is way out of whack.

If tech wants the best workers, there are plenty of willing and capable Americans ready to pick up the work. Just fucking pay for it. Stop lying through your teeth that this is about talent. It isn't. It's about your stockholders. That's why you only hear the most powerful bitching about it since they are the only ones who would benefit.

[1] http://www-tc.pbs.org/prod-media/newshour/photos/2013/07/18/...

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#17

Post by mgkimsal »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #9

It would be helpful to have some concrete examples of companies who are hurting from this shortage. What projects, specifically, are they not getting done? What specific requirements are they not able to find in potential employees? Why, specifically, is training not an option? How, specifically, is inability to get this project going hurting them? What specific compensation are they offering? If you want some trust,…

"Why, specifically, is training not an option?"

That would take too much time! Better to spend years lobbying to expand incoming worker numbers vs spending less time training people in the skills you need (short term). Longer term look to invest in education programs here too, but hey, that costs money. Better to keep billions overseas, then complain about the state of the country's education system, than pay taxes on the money and have those taxes help better the very country you're complaining about.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#18

Post by wdewind »

sheetjs wrote: post #3
sosuke wrote: post #2

Just on the subject of programmer salaries, I was talking with someone who had much more experience in the computing industry than myself and he pointed out something I'd never known. He said that programmer salaries from pre-bubble days was six-figures, and that we're still in that range, and not higher is proof that salaries have been kept low. Six-figures today is not what six-figures was worth in 1998. Inflation…

> anyone who cries foul about a shortage of workers Those people generally use the phrase to mean "a shortage of workers willing to accept below-market wages and invest all of their time and energy in a company while bearing the downside risk of a entrepreneur but none of the upside."

> Those people generally use the phrase to mean "a shortage of workers willing to accept below-market wages and invest all of their time and energy in a company while bearing the downside risk of a entrepreneur but none of the upside."

I agree that salaries are an issue, but I can't agree with this attitude which seems so prevalent on hacker news recently.

First of all, the downside risk an entrepreneur faces is huge. We like to say we are the type of nation and culture that accepts failure and encourages risk, and compared to other places that may be true. But the reality for an entrepreneur coming out of a business is usually not super easy. Few companies are looking to hire people who ran unsuccessful businesses - the entrepreneur skillset tends to make it hard to market oneself. On the other hand, an engineer coming out of a failed startup will have the same trouble finding work they had as they went in.

In terms of upside, negotiate a position that makes sense for you. You're the only one responsible for how much of the upside you share.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#19

Post by mgkimsal »

gsibble wrote: post #16

This whole set of lies really makes me angry. Ever notice how it's only the most powerful of powerful who complain about "talent shortage"? Those who have the most to gain from reducing technology salaries? Sure, you might hear about it being a competitive market with high salaries and all, but that's what it's supposed to be! Engineering talent is in high demand and salaries are supposed to go up! If anything, they…

" but that's what it's supposed to be! Engineering talent is in high demand and salaries are supposed to go up!"

And this is the other half of the labor/capital equation, doing its damnedest to keep expenses low and profits high. It's supposed to work like this. :/

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#20

Post by Spooky23 »

The whole premise of this "crisis" is that folks want to have their cake and eat it too.

Feels to me like this is more about convenience for financiers. It's easier to do due diligence when everything you do goes through the same funnel a few minutes away from your office. Much easier than flying to Denver, New York or Chicago.

Instead of importing more workers into the overcrowded and expensive valley, maybe export the jobs to one of the other cities in the US with skilled workers. At this point, New York City is practically a cheap market.

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