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CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

amanpour.blogs.cnn.com

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Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#11

Post by justin66 »

beloch wrote: post #6

It would actually be in the U.S.'s own interests to prosecute these CIA agents and their superiors. First, this would show support for international laws against torture and help put the lid back on Pandora's box. This would directly reduce the probability of captured U.S. citizens being tortured. No, that probably does not include those captured by ISIL, but are rogue terrorist organizations all U.S. citizens will n…

> Prosecuting those who committed illegal acts, even though they were assured of immunity, sends a clear message that individuals are still responsible for their actions.

They weren't really offered immunity, they were assured by the Office of Legal Counsel that they were doing something legal. Get bad advice from your lawyer as to what is legal and what isn't, go commit a crime, and see what happens.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#12

Post by waps »

molecule wrote: post #4

Any country, except the United States. > Prosecutions by the U.S. itself, however, seem very unlikely. In 2012, the Department of Justice said that “the Department would not prosecute anyone who acted in good faith and within the scope of the legal guidance given by the Office of Legal Counsel regarding the interrogation of detainees.”

Supporting the UN human rights council ? Really ? Have you ever looked at who you're supporting just to get your way ? I mean, I'm all for holding those responsible to account, but, firstly, nothing will change unless the US itself holds those people to account. Second the UN are firmly on the side of human rights violators that make Hitler look like a beginner, and the UN itself also feels the need to commit massacres and mass-rapes on a regular basis. No one has even been held to account, not even in Northern Europe.

I mean, I understand the concept of realpolitik, but this is driving things very, very far.

Furthermore, there is no such thing as international jurisdiction, despite what the UN would want you to believe. It is about as legal as the US' execution of Bin Laden. If countries were to start persecuting each other's armies it would quickly end very badly, obviously. Hell, the half of the Saudi royal family would probably be sentenced to death in the US in the first month (because half of them have tortured and killed servants [8] [9] [10]). Do you think it'd be smart to do that ?. Also note that this is normal practice in Saudi Arabia [11].

Personally I find the UN's distasteful double standard an atrocious joke. Since 1994, the majority of UN member countries have constitutions in direct contradiction with human rights, the biggest one being China (well, in terms of power and population), and the biggest block being islamic nations, that disallow freedom of religion and equality of sexes (and usually equality of ethnicities as well, ie. direct legal racism, like it exists in the majority of islamic nations, as well as in China and other nations).

And that's ignoring the many, many, many human rights violations perpetrated by the UN itself [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]

As you can see on the Human Rights Council' wikipedia pages [6], the biggest human rights issues are :

1) Israel. Since 2006, EVERY meeting of the human rights council has over half of the time dedicated to Israel's human rights abuses. The person currently in charge of setting the agenda for this part of the meeting felt the need to publish this picture : http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/AS-Cartoo... (note the kippah on the dog)

"There has never been a single resolution about the decades-long repression of the civil and political rights of 1.3 billion people in China, or the more than a million female migrant workers in Saudi Arabia being kept as virtual slaves, or the virulent racism which has brought 600,000 people to the brink of starvation in Zimbabwe. Every year, UN bodies are required to produce at least 25 reports on alleged human rights violations by Israel, but not one on an Iranian criminal justice system which mandates punishments like crucifixion, stoning, and cross-amputation. This is not legitimate critique of states with equal or worse human rights records. It is demonization of the Jewish state." [7]

2) Defamation of religion (dozens of resolution calling for world-wide introduction of blasphemy laws)

And internal politics concerning who gets a seat (and over a million bucks per year, free travel, a staff, ...)

These are the guys you're asking for help. These guys should be taken out, dragged before a court, sentenced to death, and executed for their OWN crimes long before they pass judgement on anyone else.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse_by_UN_peacek...

[2] http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2014/04/un-3600-raped-d...

[3] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1538476/UN-staff-a...

[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre#Expulsion_o...

[5] http://www.projectcensored.org/12-another-massacre-in-haiti-...

[6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Cou...

[7] Bayefsky, Anne. "Perspectives on Anti-Semitism Today". Lecture at conference "Confronting Anti-Semitism: Education for Tolerance and Understanding", United Nations Department of Information, New York, June 21, 2004.

[8] http://www.islamicinvitationturkey.com/2013/06/02/saudi-prin...

[9] http://www.smh.com.au/world/saudi-royal-beat-strangled-serva...

[10] http://www.darkgovernment.com/news/saudi-prince-jailed-in-br...

[11] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSMcnL1OfR0

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#14

Post by logn »

alexandros wrote: post #8
beloch wrote: post #6

It would actually be in the U.S.'s own interests to prosecute these CIA agents and their superiors. First, this would show support for international laws against torture and help put the lid back on Pandora's box. This would directly reduce the probability of captured U.S. citizens being tortured. No, that probably does not include those captured by ISIL, but are rogue terrorist organizations all U.S. citizens will n…

The prestige hit and vulnerability to "letting down the troops" criticisms will ensure this doesn't happen.

It will never happen because the prosecution would logically include Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and some legislators. I don't see a Republican administration prosecuting them because of loyalty, and I don't see a Democratic one doing that because I suspect Pelosi and Obama could be prosecuted as well (if new evidence comes to light). And without going after the very highest level offenders, you're throwing the CIA under the bus, and that won't end well.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#15

Post by rhino369 »

alexandros wrote: post #8
beloch wrote: post #6

It would actually be in the U.S.'s own interests to prosecute these CIA agents and their superiors. First, this would show support for international laws against torture and help put the lid back on Pandora's box. This would directly reduce the probability of captured U.S. citizens being tortured. No, that probably does not include those captured by ISIL, but are rogue terrorist organizations all U.S. citizens will n…

The prestige hit and vulnerability to "letting down the troops" criticisms will ensure this doesn't happen.

The real reason is that they were carrying out the official policy of the US government. Just calling it CIA torture is minimizing how far up this went. Bush ordered it. DOD knew. DOJ not only knew, it crafted the governments tortured definition of torture. Congress knew.

This isn't some off the books CIA wet team opp. It was planned and signed off at the highest levels. John Yoo, who wrote the torture memos, is a professor at Berkeley. That's how mainstream this was.

Furthermore, the people signed off on it. Not just through our Congressional representatives. Not just because we re-elected the politicians who did it. The public supported it directly. We've known for a long what was going on.

Prosecuting only the people who carried out the orders is cowardly.

You'd have to try Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, a bunch of high ranking DOD and DOJ officials, a bunch of Generals and other officers, Congressional leadership from that era, and former CIA directors too.

"Just following orders" didn't work at Nuremberg because we were trying the people who gave the orders too.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#16

Post by VieElm »

rasz_pl wrote: post #9

We've been over this already. US just fucking doesnt care. Extradition treaties are ONE WAY. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/13/italy-c... http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/31/obama-j... One of kidnapper/torturer fuckers was even apprehended, and despite international arrest warrant magically released very next day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Seldon_Lady Those people are un…

> until real revolution in US, or some sort of vigilantism movement

America doesn't need a revolution, it just needs more informed and motivated voters who vote in their self-interest. Maybe that counts as a revolution, but the way you paired it with "vigiliantism movement" suggested some kind of violence or government overthrow which would be pretty awful to be honest and I hope never happens in my life time or the life time of my children.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#17

Post by gaadd33 »

rasz_pl wrote: post #9

We've been over this already. US just fucking doesnt care. Extradition treaties are ONE WAY. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/13/italy-c... http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/31/obama-j... One of kidnapper/torturer fuckers was even apprehended, and despite international arrest warrant magically released very next day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Seldon_Lady Those people are un…

Is that any different than people connected to other intelligence communities such as Viktor Bout or similar?

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#18

Post by wavefunction »

logn wrote: post #14
alexandros wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The prestige hit and vulnerability to "letting down the troops" criticisms will ensure this doesn't happen.

It will never happen because the prosecution would logically include Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and some legislators. I don't see a Republican administration prosecuting them because of loyalty, and I don't see a Democratic one doing that because I suspect Pelosi and Obama could be prosecuted as well (if new evidence comes to light). And without going after the very highest level offenders, you're throwing the CIA…

Obama probably would not be part of the group but Pelosi and Dianne Feinstein would. Jay Rockefeller as well. These three very senior leaders in the Democratic party have sat on the Foreign Intelligence Committee during this period of torture and while supposedly not completely in-the-loop approved of what they did know of.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#19

Post by briandear »

One huge peave of mine reflects a general level of ignorance about CIA by both media and commentators; they aren't CIA 'Agents' they are CIA 'officers.' It might sound like a nitpick, but if the news media repeatedly gets such a fundamental detail wrong, how can they be even remotely viewed as credible in the bigger issues? It would be like a reporter referring to RAM as ROM; hard to to have any faith that they even have ever spoken to a CIA officer let alone have the basic knowledge necessary to write national and international media reports on the subject.

In case anyone is curious an 'agent' is a foreign national recruited by a CIA officer to spy. A CIA officer is the one that runs the agents. The FBI has special agents, but not officers.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#20

Post by mercurial »

waps wrote: post #12
molecule wrote: post #4

Any country, except the United States. > Prosecutions by the U.S. itself, however, seem very unlikely. In 2012, the Department of Justice said that “the Department would not prosecute anyone who acted in good faith and within the scope of the legal guidance given by the Office of Legal Counsel regarding the interrogation of detainees.”

Supporting the UN human rights council ? Really ? Have you ever looked at who you're supporting just to get your way ? I mean, I'm all for holding those responsible to account, but, firstly, nothing will change unless the US itself holds those people to account. Second the UN are firmly on the side of human rights violators that make Hitler look like a beginner, and the UN itself also feels the need to commit massacr…

You are quite right in saying that the UN Human Rights committee is a farce. However, find me a nation-state with no double standards.

The behaviour of the US, as self-proclaimed champion of freedom and democracy, is especially egregious. It imposes an embargo on Cuba while shaking hands with the Saudis and thinks Israel can do no wrong. Not to mention its longstanding record of supporting human rights in some parts of the world while installing pet thugs in other parts of the world. In this light, a lecture on the UN's hypocrisy is laughable.

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