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When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

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Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#11

Post by ekidd »

Sumaso wrote: post #2

Reading the abstract from the actual paper itself seems to indicate that people were not more or less satisfied with their jobs after the reduction of working hours. "While satisfaction with working hours increased, reductions had no impact on job and life satisfaction." It seems people did actually like the reduced number of hours, they didn't say that they liked their job more, or found more satisfaction in their l…

This sounds like it might relate to the "hedonic treadmill":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill

Brickman, Coates, and Janoff-Bulman were among the first to investigate the hedonic treadmill in their 1978 study, “Lottery Winners and Accident Victims: Is Happiness Relative?”. Lottery winners and paraplegics were compared to a control group and as predicted, comparison (with past experiences and current communities) and habituation (to new circumstances) affected levels of happiness such that after the initial impact of the extremely positive or negative events, happiness levels typically went back to the average levels.

If things like winning the lottery or losing a limb tend to have short-term effects on happiness, then it's not surprising that a ~10% change in working hours has little effect. Especially if—as another poster mentioned—you just end up taking the work home.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#12

Post by ameza »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #5

Before you draw any firm conclusions, be sure to read the details in the last couple of paragraphs: The subjects' hours were only reduced by about 10%, an average of five hours a week; many of them were still working 40-50 hours; and many of them were still expected to get the same amount of work done, forcing them to take work home with them. The article author suggests that the Korean laws may not have gone far eno…

Exactly. The key here is that the expectations did not change. The private sector still expected the work to be done in the time allocated. With people having the ability to work remotely, it becomes even more difficult to stop yourself from working. You need a combination of both, the employee being able to stand up and demand the employer to scale down expectations and the state to step in and protect the employee from the employer retaliating and firing this individual.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#13

Post by Goronmon »

jerf wrote: post #10
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #5

Before you draw any firm conclusions, be sure to read the details in the last couple of paragraphs: The subjects' hours were only reduced by about 10%, an average of five hours a week; many of them were still working 40-50 hours; and many of them were still expected to get the same amount of work done, forcing them to take work home with them. The article author suggests that the Korean laws may not have gone far eno…

"The article author suggests that the Korean laws may not have gone far enough." That's a really scary line of logic though. "We did a thing, and there was no effect. We propose that to obtain the desired effect we should do even more of the thing that had no effect." That's undisprovable. It's possible that doing the thing that produced no results even harder could have some positive effect, but the world is probabl…

>That's a really scary line of logic though. "We did a thing, and there was no effect. We propose that to obtain the desired effect we should do even more of the thing that had no effect."

Is it scary? I mean, if I go from getting no exercise to spending 30 seconds a day exercising, but see no change in my weight, should I therefore conclude that exercising is pointless? Or should I try exercising more and also maybe be more careful with my eating habits?

I think the scary thing is when people try to take complicated subjects and distill them down to shallow talking points.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#14

Post by Bahamut »

jerf wrote: post #10
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #5

Before you draw any firm conclusions, be sure to read the details in the last couple of paragraphs: The subjects' hours were only reduced by about 10%, an average of five hours a week; many of them were still working 40-50 hours; and many of them were still expected to get the same amount of work done, forcing them to take work home with them. The article author suggests that the Korean laws may not have gone far eno…

"The article author suggests that the Korean laws may not have gone far enough." That's a really scary line of logic though. "We did a thing, and there was no effect. We propose that to obtain the desired effect we should do even more of the thing that had no effect." That's undisprovable. It's possible that doing the thing that produced no results even harder could have some positive effect, but the world is probabl…

That is not how a true scientist thinks. Effects are not necessarily linear. For example, in order to see some effects in quantum mechanics, a threshold must be passed. Or in physics, a certain amount of force to overcome the minimum threshold as a result of friction.

Problem solving isn't such a simple operation. One must be careful with logic.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#15

Post by brudgers »

jerf wrote: post #10
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #5

Before you draw any firm conclusions, be sure to read the details in the last couple of paragraphs: The subjects' hours were only reduced by about 10%, an average of five hours a week; many of them were still working 40-50 hours; and many of them were still expected to get the same amount of work done, forcing them to take work home with them. The article author suggests that the Korean laws may not have gone far eno…

"The article author suggests that the Korean laws may not have gone far enough." That's a really scary line of logic though. "We did a thing, and there was no effect. We propose that to obtain the desired effect we should do even more of the thing that had no effect." That's undisprovable. It's possible that doing the thing that produced no results even harder could have some positive effect, but the world is probabl…

A more charitable reading of the comment might have taken the phrase "not have gone far enough" in terms of the policy achieving its objectives. Regulating work hours was the means, not the ends.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#16

Post by dmix »

ekidd wrote: post #11
Sumaso wrote: post #2

Reading the abstract from the actual paper itself seems to indicate that people were not more or less satisfied with their jobs after the reduction of working hours. "While satisfaction with working hours increased, reductions had no impact on job and life satisfaction." It seems people did actually like the reduced number of hours, they didn't say that they liked their job more, or found more satisfaction in their l…

This sounds like it might relate to the "hedonic treadmill": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill Brickman, Coates, and Janoff-Bulman were among the first to investigate the hedonic treadmill in their 1978 study, “Lottery Winners and Accident Victims: Is Happiness Relative?”. Lottery winners and paraplegics were compared to a control group and as predicted, comparison (with past experiences and current comm…

Wow, I wonder what effect this has on politics?

It was noted that the Arab Spring was largely not the result of political discontent but the fact food prices were becoming very high [0]. It might be the case that unless the basic livelihood of people is consistently threatened - such as not being able to eat - that they will always put up with the political status quo.

As we're seeing now with the non-existent political reaction to mass surveillance.

[0] http://necsi.edu/research/social/foodcrises.html

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#17

Post by JoeAltmaier »

dmix wrote: post #16
ekidd wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like it might relate to the "hedonic treadmill": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill Brickman, Coates, and Janoff-Bulman were among the first to investigate the hedonic treadmill in their 1978 study, “Lottery Winners and Accident Victims: Is Happiness Relative?”. Lottery winners and paraplegics were compared to a control group and as predicted, comparison (with past experiences and current comm…

Wow, I wonder what effect this has on politics? It was noted that the Arab Spring was largely not the result of political discontent but the fact food prices were becoming very high [0]. It might be the case that unless the basic livelihood of people is consistently threatened - such as not being able to eat - that they will always put up with the political status quo. As we're seeing now with the non-existent politi…

Somebody said something about never being more than three meals away from revolution? Makes sense.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#18

Post by eropple »

jerf wrote: post #10
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #5

Before you draw any firm conclusions, be sure to read the details in the last couple of paragraphs: The subjects' hours were only reduced by about 10%, an average of five hours a week; many of them were still working 40-50 hours; and many of them were still expected to get the same amount of work done, forcing them to take work home with them. The article author suggests that the Korean laws may not have gone far eno…

"The article author suggests that the Korean laws may not have gone far enough." That's a really scary line of logic though. "We did a thing, and there was no effect. We propose that to obtain the desired effect we should do even more of the thing that had no effect." That's undisprovable. It's possible that doing the thing that produced no results even harder could have some positive effect, but the world is probabl…

> It's possible that doing the thing that produced no results even harder could have some positive effect, but the world is probably even more full of things that produced no results but if pushed harder will have negative effects. Part of being a real scientist is acknowledging that this can only be interpreted as evidence against the idea that forcing shorter work hours will make people happier, no matter how cognitively or emotionally challenging it is. That's being a scientist.

Real science, huh? A mild change in X did nothing, so you should assume a major change in X will do nothing?

Ever looked at a reaction graph?

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#19

Post by spindritf »

Goronmon wrote: post #13
jerf wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The article author suggests that the Korean laws may not have gone far enough." That's a really scary line of logic though. "We did a thing, and there was no effect. We propose that to obtain the desired effect we should do even more of the thing that had no effect." That's undisprovable. It's possible that doing the thing that produced no results even harder could have some positive effect, but the world is probabl…

>That's a really scary line of logic though. "We did a thing, and there was no effect. We propose that to obtain the desired effect we should do even more of the thing that had no effect." Is it scary? I mean, if I go from getting no exercise to spending 30 seconds a day exercising, but see no change in my weight, should I therefore conclude that exercising is pointless? Or should I try exercising more and also maybe…

You cannot simply extrapolate from smaller intervention but it does lower the prior for a larger one, of course. Maybe unless you have a specific hypothesis which predicts a non-linear effect.

Also, exercising will actually do very little for your weight because calories have became too cheap and readily available to burn them off. You can eat more by accident than you will use in a fairly vigorous workout.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#20

Post by s3nnyy »

Happiness-wise South Korea ranks 41. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report).

Here in Switzerland (3rd in happiness) it is not unusual that people are employed only 3-4 days / week and still make enough money to live well. I don't know of any other country where this is commonplace.

(Full disclosure: If you're from the EU and looking for a tech-job over here, I'd be happy to help out).

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