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My boys love 1986 computing

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11–20 of 68 posts

Re: My boys love 1986 computing

#11

There is something about 1980's-era computers which make them so much more accessable to kids than today's systems. It's probably to do with how much simpler they are - if I can put my finger on it, I'd say it's because they don't have lots of Things which can tempt you to distraction; for example - if they had a web browser of some kind back then, you'd be tempted away from learning to program in BASIC, or learning…

Its the enormity of the abstractions that have to be embraced, in my opinion, which lead to distraction. There is much between a file and its handle.

And thus: Far, far more words - real, English and/or Development-oriented words, symbols - exist in all the infinite abstractions of a typical Desktop machine; whereas the 8-bit worlds' abstract taxonomy is very sparse.

There isn't really any good reason to throw away the 8-bit machines. They still work. And they still teach kids how computers work, even still today. I hope we see a return to this technology in a fashion that really compels people - young and old - to apply the ethos of those days, again. Distraction-free computing is one legacy of the earlier era.

Re: My boys love 1986 computing

#12

There is something about 1980's-era computers which make them so much more accessable to kids than today's systems. It's probably to do with how much simpler they are - if I can put my finger on it, I'd say it's because they don't have lots of Things which can tempt you to distraction; for example - if they had a web browser of some kind back then, you'd be tempted away from learning to program in BASIC, or learning…

I'm not so sure lack of distractions makes that much difference. I think on my C64 it was frequently the case that we'd switch games every few minutes. We were easily distracted with or without something specific to trigger it.

But these computers were simple enough to "mess with" and get a mental model of the whole. By the time I was 7-8, I started "experimenting" with pulling chips out of sockets (to my parents horror) and seeing what happened if I put them in different places (...). If you even could have done that on modern machines with almost everything surface mounted, you'd fry stuff. With those old machines that was usually fairly hard. Amazingly, I never burned out any chips that way. The simplicity encouraged meddling with things in a way that is harder to see younger kids do with most modern computers:

PCs are outright dangerous to let a young child dismantle on their own - whether or not you disconnect power (I'm afraid my C64's were more than once opened up while connected..); machines like the Raspberry Pi are simple and safe enough, but there's nothing to do inside them. Likewise for tablets and smart phones: If you manage to disconnect the display without breaking anything, you're pretty much at the limits.

If you try to break into the black box as a child, you're faced with an image of something that is way beyond your comprehension.

The C64 and similar home computers, on the other hand, had clearly labelled diagrams in their manuals that even a child could understand. You'd open it up, and you'd see what the different things were, and you could tinker (at least if you didn't tell your parents) and see the effects.

It seems like it is harder to become "independent": Children learn a few "magic incantations" to get to the familiar things, and the knowledge required to bridge the gaps where exploration yields results that encourage further exploration seems higher. Or maybe that's what it looked like to our parents too.

A few years older, I soldered wires straight onto the pins of the CPU of my Amiga. You could make a "pause" switch and reset button easily that way - you could solder it onto the bus exposed on the left hand side of the A500's too, but I had a hard drive attached there.

Speaking of hard drives, considering the article mentions demonstrating floppy drives with the cover off, of course I did that with my 1541 drive for the C64 (and test what happened when moving the IO chips between the 1541 and the C64 - they're "almost" the same model; enough so that the C64 at least will run; same for the one from the Amiga - their differences are small enough to be inconsequential for most programs), but also with my first (20MB) hard drive out of necessity: I bought it used, and within 6 months it started having problems starting up. The solution? Open it up, and give the motor a helping hand spinning up the platter - after that it worked fine. The drive survived another two years I think after that.

Re: My boys love 1986 computing

#13
post #9

I initially gave my two girls an old desktop computer with a linux on it. They started to use it before I showed them how and they started figuring stuff out without me and soon I was sitting riveted in the background watching them discover things and trying to learn about computer UIs and work out how they thought. Here's an old blog post about it: http://williamedwardscoder.tumblr.com/post/19500788060/my-te... - I…

Give them a working 8-bit system with hundreds of games and apps from the days before the Internet. There is still just as much working 8-bit and non-Internet software out there as there ever was: you just have to find the hardware. Then, most important of all: don't leave them alone with it. Stay there and play with them. Maybe you'll enjoy a return to the 8-bit software development days too, just for the heck of it…

Attempts to reason with them or ban internet have just met with stroppiness. Its like they have moved from being creators to being consumers.

Re: My boys love 1986 computing

#14

I initially gave my two girls an old desktop computer with a linux on it. They started to use it before I showed them how and they started figuring stuff out without me and soon I was sitting riveted in the background watching them discover things and trying to learn about computer UIs and work out how they thought. Here's an old blog post about it: http://williamedwardscoder.tumblr.com/post/19500788060/my-te... - I…

Try getting them interested in things like the Arduino. Make it father-daughter time or something to teach them the basics there, to get them tinkering, get them poking at code and seeing results. Maybe get a codec chip to work with them on making a music player. Alternatively, maybe try poking them at scratch ( http://scratch.mit.edu/ ) to have them make their own things.

One of the things that I think may be going on here is that exploration now feels daunting. It's hard to get excited about getting things to print "hello world" when in another windows are bright colored animated characters engaging in absurd hijinks. However, being able to create one's own absurd hijinks may just help rekindle that spark.

Re: My boys love 1986 computing

#16

I initially gave my two girls an old desktop computer with a linux on it. They started to use it before I showed them how and they started figuring stuff out without me and soon I was sitting riveted in the background watching them discover things and trying to learn about computer UIs and work out how they thought. Here's an old blog post about it: http://williamedwardscoder.tumblr.com/post/19500788060/my-te... - I…

> Its sad but its true and I wish I knew what to do about it.

For us that have already been spoiled by modern computing, we need to be shown what useful stuff that we can do by learning about computers (obviously we would need to be on a relatively open modern computer). If most people are satisfied with whatever gets them through the more-or-less intuitive GUIs that lets them watch some videos, do they really need to know more? Well yes, when their computer eventually starts behaving strangely and simply restarting it doesn't help... but that kind of frustrating troubleshooting doesn't leave a good taste in many people's mouth when it comes to having to deal with computers.

If they are already used to modern, powerful computing, chances are that they won't be impressed by the usual computer wizardry that programmers are impressed by. Simply because they don't need, or don't see the utility in, shuffling a bunch of text around efficiently. Instead of becoming a wiz at retro computing - which might be in part because you need to be a wiz, simply because it is more primitive - what can we impress people with on modern computers that they can't do themselves easily (and would like to do)? They've already been spoiled by modern computing - for many, there is no turning back.

If the only real allure of being a computer whiz - to most people, anyway - is to be able to operate arcane technology, then the value proposition simply isn't there for people that do not appreciate computing in itself (and even that might be an acquired taste, so sort of a catch 22). It's like a classical guitar virtuoso who can be motivated to learn songs and pieces solely for the technical challenge they pose, while his students just want to gain the skills necessary to learn their favourite band's songs, or the songs that they've written themselves.

Re: My boys love 1986 computing

#17
post #12

There is something about 1980's-era computers which make them so much more accessable to kids than today's systems. It's probably to do with how much simpler they are - if I can put my finger on it, I'd say it's because they don't have lots of Things which can tempt you to distraction; for example - if they had a web browser of some kind back then, you'd be tempted away from learning to program in BASIC, or learning…

I'm not so sure lack of distractions makes that much difference. I think on my C64 it was frequently the case that we'd switch games every few minutes. We were easily distracted with or without something specific to trigger it. But these computers were simple enough to "mess with" and get a mental model of the whole. By the time I was 7-8, I started "experimenting" with pulling chips out of sockets (to my parents hor…

That hard drive probably had "sticktion", where the read/write head sticks to the platter surface, preventing the motor from spinning the drive up. It can happen if you leave a hard drive running for a while and then shut it down without allowing it to park its head.

Modern hard drives are clever enough to park the head when they detect the power supply turning off, so it hasn't been such a problem recently.

The recommended solution for sticktion is to lift the comptuter (or hard drive, if it is separate) about an inch off the desk, and let go.

Re: My boys love 1986 computing

#18
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so sure lack of distractions makes that much difference. I think on my C64 it was frequently the case that we'd switch games every few minutes. We were easily distracted with or without something specific to trigger it. But these computers were simple enough to "mess with" and get a mental model of the whole. By the time I was 7-8, I started "experimenting" with pulling chips out of sockets (to my parents hor…

That hard drive probably had "sticktion", where the read/write head sticks to the platter surface, preventing the motor from spinning the drive up. It can happen if you leave a hard drive running for a while and then shut it down without allowing it to park its head. Modern hard drives are clever enough to park the head when they detect the power supply turning off, so it hasn't been such a problem recently. The reco…

When I was a Customer Support Engineer for SGI way back, I had to swap out a load of IBM drives on lots of SGI kit at various customer locations due to this, which was dubbed "The IBM Stiction Problem".

Power off --> remove drive --> Sharply tap the drive on desk --> replace drive + add new drive --> clone

The look on customer faces at the "Sharply tap the drive on desk" stage was as priceless as the data on the hard drive B)

Re: My boys love 1986 computing

#19
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give them a working 8-bit system with hundreds of games and apps from the days before the Internet. There is still just as much working 8-bit and non-Internet software out there as there ever was: you just have to find the hardware. Then, most important of all: don't leave them alone with it. Stay there and play with them. Maybe you'll enjoy a return to the 8-bit software development days too, just for the heck of it…

Attempts to reason with them or ban internet have just met with stroppiness. Its like they have moved from being creators to being consumers.

Maybe attempt to work with their consumption. I they like watching kids TV shows online, show them how to download the videos and edit them. Maybe they can cut out parts they find boring at first, then move onto making a best of version from a season to eventually remixing the shows into something completely new. There's some fairly decent and easy video editing software nowadays - all drag and drop - that could be fun for them to explore, while still being able to consume.

The good thing is that this could be a gentle intro to critical thinking - ie analysing a show to say what they like and don't like and why - then move on to them creating a better version for themselves... The tech skills could come later when they bump into barriers to doing what they want - eg not enough RAM or harddrive space, so they then have to tinker to get the system to do what they want.

Just an idea..

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