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For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

usmarshals.gov

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Re: For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

#11

Post by x1798DE »

zwtaylor wrote: post #2

I don't have a deep grasp of Civil Forfeiture but it seems like this is unusual considering DPR has not been convicted of anything yet. Is this part of a plea bargin or something similar?

Civil asset forfeiture cases in the US, insanely, have a reversed burden of proof and are in re actions against the assets to be seized. When assets are seized by law enforcement, you have to petition for them to be returned and prove that you came by them lawfully. You don't ever need to be convicted of or even charged with a crime in order to have your assets seized.

I don't know anything about how long law enforcement has to wait before selling your assets.

Re: For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

#12

Post by ceejayoz »

zwtaylor wrote: post #2

I don't have a deep grasp of Civil Forfeiture but it seems like this is unusual considering DPR has not been convicted of anything yet. Is this part of a plea bargin or something similar?

Read this investigative series and become furious:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/collection/st...

Re: For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

#13

Post by martinko »

Aaronneyer wrote: post #3

Will be interesting to see how this announcement effects the price of bitcoins. I would imagine there will be an initial drop out of panic, but if we see some wealthy individuals with a vested interest in bitcoin buying these up, it could very much cause a large shift upwards in price.

Right after the news broke we saw a relatively high volume dump pushing the price down by about 8%, from 410 to 375. Curious to see where it will go now. To be honest I expected a larger dump after this kind of news..

Re: For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

#14

Post by zeeshanm »

lucb1e wrote: post #7
Aaronneyer wrote: post #3

Will be interesting to see how this announcement effects the price of bitcoins. I would imagine there will be an initial drop out of panic, but if we see some wealthy individuals with a vested interest in bitcoin buying these up, it could very much cause a large shift upwards in price.

> Will be interesting to see how this announcement effects the price of bitcoins. That's what people asked last time when, if I remember correctly, the FBI was selling off some of the Silk Road coins. Nothing really happened, maybe a few percent drop, but that happens every day so I'm not even sure that was due to the sell.

To add more context, a well-known investor who happens to have significant influence ended up buying those bitcoins.

Re: For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

#16

Post by rrggrr »

emhart wrote: post #5
zwtaylor wrote: post #2

I don't have a deep grasp of Civil Forfeiture but it seems like this is unusual considering DPR has not been convicted of anything yet. Is this part of a plea bargin or something similar?

from the link, and their all caps treatment preserved: ON JANUARY 27, 2014, THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK ENTERED A STIPULATION AND ORDER FOR INTERLOCUTORY SALE OF BITCOINS WHEREIN THE UNITED STATES AND ROSS WILLIAM ULBRICHT AGREED THAT THE UNITED STATES MAY SELL ANY PORTION OR ALL OF THE COMPUTER HARDWARE BITCOINS ON A DATE OR DATES IN A MANNER TO BE DETERMINED BY THE GOVERNM…

The "Computer Hardware Bitcoins" term is notable and I wonder to which statute it refers. What actions were taken or crime alleged where it would be important to characterize Bitcoins in this way?

I speculate that Ulbrict needs funds to pay attorneys fees. It may be he stipulated to a portion (or all) of the BTC as his in-exchange for unfreezing the asset and permitting its sale.

Re: For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

#17

Post by giodamelio »

zwtaylor wrote: post #2

I don't have a deep grasp of Civil Forfeiture but it seems like this is unusual considering DPR has not been convicted of anything yet. Is this part of a plea bargin or something similar?

My understanding is this. The government found a bunch of bitcoins on a computer that may or may not have belonged to Ross Ulbricht, so they asked him "Are all these bitcoins yours?". Ross can't say that they are without admitting his guilt, so the government auctions them off.

Re: For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

#18

Post by waterlesscloud »

emhart wrote: post #5
zwtaylor wrote: post #2

I don't have a deep grasp of Civil Forfeiture but it seems like this is unusual considering DPR has not been convicted of anything yet. Is this part of a plea bargin or something similar?

from the link, and their all caps treatment preserved: ON JANUARY 27, 2014, THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK ENTERED A STIPULATION AND ORDER FOR INTERLOCUTORY SALE OF BITCOINS WHEREIN THE UNITED STATES AND ROSS WILLIAM ULBRICHT AGREED THAT THE UNITED STATES MAY SELL ANY PORTION OR ALL OF THE COMPUTER HARDWARE BITCOINS ON A DATE OR DATES IN A MANNER TO BE DETERMINED BY THE GOVERNM…

It's amusing to see the url uses "dpr-bitcoins", DPR being the common community abbreviation for Dread Pirate Roberts. I mean, that's what they are, just funny to see the govt refer to him that way.

http://www.usmarshals.gov/assets/2014/dpr-bitcoins/

Re: For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

#19

Post by tedunangst »

emhart wrote: post #5
zwtaylor wrote: post #2

I don't have a deep grasp of Civil Forfeiture but it seems like this is unusual considering DPR has not been convicted of anything yet. Is this part of a plea bargin or something similar?

from the link, and their all caps treatment preserved: ON JANUARY 27, 2014, THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK ENTERED A STIPULATION AND ORDER FOR INTERLOCUTORY SALE OF BITCOINS WHEREIN THE UNITED STATES AND ROSS WILLIAM ULBRICHT AGREED THAT THE UNITED STATES MAY SELL ANY PORTION OR ALL OF THE COMPUTER HARDWARE BITCOINS ON A DATE OR DATES IN A MANNER TO BE DETERMINED BY THE GOVERNM…

It is clearly in Ross's interests to permit the sale. He's not DPR, remember? So these aren't his bitcoins and he therefore doesn't care what happens to them.

Re: For Sale: 50,000 Bitcoins

#20

Post by eyeareque »

ncallaway wrote: post #6
zwtaylor wrote: post #2

I don't have a deep grasp of Civil Forfeiture but it seems like this is unusual considering DPR has not been convicted of anything yet. Is this part of a plea bargin or something similar?

Civil forfeiture is different from criminal forfeiture in that it does _not_ require a guilty verdict. Civil forfeiture is against the _property_, and it puts the burden of proof on the owner of the property to prove that it was obtained legally. Here's another explanation of it that's probably better than mine: https://www.contributoria.com/issue/2014-08/539b517ba588a791...

So what happens if he legally obtained these bitcoins, but cannot prove that he did so?

So he basically loses them before he even can prove that they are his or not?

That doesn't seem right, it would make sense that the coins are held in an escrow status until he was proven guilty.. It seems to be a big loophole for the government to just go and steal whatever they want from you, before you've been proven guilty.

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