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The Berlin Wall fell 25 years ago, but Germany is still divided

washingtonpost.com

11–20 of 73 posts

Re: The Berlin Wall fell 25 years ago, but Germany is still divided

#11
post #5

25 years is a very short time to expect some of the longer term economic and cultural changes to take place. Just like the street light bulbs, they'll get replaced as the old ones die off. On a related note, I've never understood how you could live in West Berlin and yet travel freely to the rest of west Germany, because the city itself was deep in East Germany. I know the city was supplied by airlift during the bloc…

> So how did someone from West Berlin travel to, say, Frankfurt by car?

There were few approved transit routes from West Berlin to West Germany. So you could get a transit visa (which you had to pay for in west german currency) upon getting on one of those routes and present it to exit the GDR again (you weren't allowed to leave the transit route midway, and if you took to long to pass through, you'd be questioned). Note that transit between West Berlin and West Germany is different from simply crossing between the two Germanies[0], which was relatively easy for est german citizens, but particularly difficult to do for east german citizens.

> What was to stop someone from East Germany doing the same thing? The wall only went through the city, right?

The wall may have only gone through the city, but there still were border checkpoints[1] outside of Berlin.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_inner_German_borde... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_German_border

Re: The Berlin Wall fell 25 years ago, but Germany is still divided

#12
post #2

The light color difference in Berlin is awesome, didn't know that. Another difference: the Ampelmann West: http://tinyurl.com/krew59f East: http://tinyurl.com/k6nk8dx

The Ampelmann is no longer a differentiator between East an West Berlin, nowadays it's "east Ampelmann" everywhere in Berlin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampelm%C3%A4nnchen#History_afte...

Re: The Berlin Wall fell 25 years ago, but Germany is still divided

#13
post #5

25 years is a very short time to expect some of the longer term economic and cultural changes to take place. Just like the street light bulbs, they'll get replaced as the old ones die off. On a related note, I've never understood how you could live in West Berlin and yet travel freely to the rest of west Germany, because the city itself was deep in East Germany. I know the city was supplied by airlift during the bloc…

The airlift had to happen because the USSR cut off the highway access to West Berlin. I believe the highway was cordoned off from the rest of East Germany.

One thing that I never understood is that in order to make this happen, planes had to fly above the USSR controlled East Germany, what prevented the soviets from just shooting down every plane since it was their airspace at the time?

Re: The Berlin Wall fell 25 years ago, but Germany is still divided

#14
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The airlift had to happen because the USSR cut off the highway access to West Berlin. I believe the highway was cordoned off from the rest of East Germany.

One thing that I never understood is that in order to make this happen, planes had to fly above the USSR controlled East Germany, what prevented the soviets from just shooting down every plane since it was their airspace at the time?

Nuclear war?

Re: The Berlin Wall fell 25 years ago, but Germany is still divided

#15
post #5

25 years is a very short time to expect some of the longer term economic and cultural changes to take place. Just like the street light bulbs, they'll get replaced as the old ones die off. On a related note, I've never understood how you could live in West Berlin and yet travel freely to the rest of west Germany, because the city itself was deep in East Germany. I know the city was supplied by airlift during the bloc…

> 25 years is a very short time to expect some of the longer term economic and cultural changes to take place.

And yet, the GDR only existed for 40 years.

Re: The Berlin Wall fell 25 years ago, but Germany is still divided

#16
I'm a little concerned with the lack of any absolute numbers in the data visualisations in this article. The 'more/less' and 'higher/lower' bars could be very misleading on some of these stats. I can understand that adding numbers can make these visualisations a little more intimidating but is it too much to expect the high/low ranges to have an absolute number on them?

For example in the disposal income visualisation what kind of magnitude of a difference is there. Is the average 2 thousand euro a year lower or 10 thousand euro a year?

What concerns me is that some of these stats can be massaged with the right visuals into producing a difference between East and West that isn't as big a difference as the graph makes it out to be.

Re: The Berlin Wall fell 25 years ago, but Germany is still divided

#17

I'm a little concerned with the lack of any absolute numbers in the data visualisations in this article. The 'more/less' and 'higher/lower' bars could be very misleading on some of these stats. I can understand that adding numbers can make these visualisations a little more intimidating but is it too much to expect the high/low ranges to have an absolute number on them? For example in the disposal income visualisatio…

The original article published in the German newspaper Die Zeit has the graphics with numbers. The article and the graphics are in English. http://zeit.de/feature/german-unification-a-nation-divided

I do not know why the Washington Post removed the numbers in their graphics...

Re: The Berlin Wall fell 25 years ago, but Germany is still divided

#18
post #6

This led me down a few rabbit holes online. I had never heard the Kennedy or Reagan speeches from Berlin, but they're embedded on the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall Those both stood out against the backdrop of dry political speeches. You have a leading statesman, sure, of a country with plenty of its own flaws, but calling out a system that is completely absurd, immoral, and against the course of hist…

Fascinating book about the Kennedy time period in Berlin:

http://www.amazon.com/Berlin-1961-Kennedy-Khrushchev-Dangero...

Re: The Berlin Wall fell 25 years ago, but Germany is still divided

#19
I think, one of the reasons, many in Eastern Germany turn to right wing parties or groups, is that they see it as alternative to the capitalistic system, which is represented by the other parties. The other alternative, the left wing side was made unpopular by the fall of the so called "communistic system" and the saying, that Communism has lost, sticks to the people. So they turn right wing. Of course, the right wing parties are no real alternative to capitalism, but that is difficult to comprehend.

Even Hitler himself presented the NSDAP as alternative to the US capitalism in the 30s. On the surface, it was, but when you looked deeper it was some kind of "undercover capitalism" under the hood of a movement that claimed to be social and unite the people -- but in reality it united some people, by tearing the whole apart, by finding some new foes, the rest of the people should feel as one. But this was an illusion from beginning.

I think, the right wing parties and groups do the same today again. They find the problems, the people have with capitalism -- and capitalism did not treat the eastern people well after the fall of the wall -- and use it as cheese in their big mouse trap.

Yes, Germany is still divided in my opinion today, because the rulers did not understand that the people need more than only bananas and some money in their pockets to go shopping.

Many women -- it is said -- even had an abortion in Eastern Germany after the fall of the wall, because unemployment was pressing so hard and in spite of German laws, some employers pressured them to do so. With unemployment still high and wages still lower than in the western parts, it is understandable, that many people don't feel to comfortable with a system that gives money, but once again no hope to those people. In the old system, they lacked bananas, but they had peace of mind and did not have the pressure to beat their neighbors. I heard many times, that people where much more friendly and helpful with each other in the old system, than they are today.

Re: The Berlin Wall fell 25 years ago, but Germany is still divided

#20
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The airlift had to happen because the USSR cut off the highway access to West Berlin. I believe the highway was cordoned off from the rest of East Germany.

One thing that I never understood is that in order to make this happen, planes had to fly above the USSR controlled East Germany, what prevented the soviets from just shooting down every plane since it was their airspace at the time?

The agreements put in place regarding the partition of authority over Germany after the war did not require keeping the roads and railways open, but did require keeping air access open along certain corridors.

So the East/Soviet leadership was able to close the roads and railways without violating any agreement; the Western/US/UK/France leadership had simply not anticipated originally that this would happen.

There were documented cases of harassment of planes, but shooting them down would have provoked another war immediately. And the Soviets knew they were not prepared to fight another war. Especially because the Soviets did not yet have nuclear weapons at the time of the blockade/airlift (the blockade lasted June 1948-May 1949, and the USSR did not conduct its first successful nuclear-weapons test until August 1949).

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