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Password Security: Why the horse battery staple is not correct

diogomonica.com

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Re: Password Security: Why the horse battery staple is not correct

#11
post #4

I liked this article and largely agree with what it has to say, but I have a question related to a bit at the end. The article recommends using multifactor authentication everywhere, which sounds great for keeping things extra secure. Recently, though, I got a new phone and I'm thankful that I only had two services for which I was using multifactor authentication because otherwise I would have had to remember to set…

2-fac with Google Voice number. 2-fac Google account with normal number. Does that work? You'd have to compromise the Google account and for that you'd have to best the actual phone.

I don't actually use this but is there a good reason not to do this?

Re: Password Security: Why the horse battery staple is not correct

#12
post #4

I liked this article and largely agree with what it has to say, but I have a question related to a bit at the end. The article recommends using multifactor authentication everywhere, which sounds great for keeping things extra secure. Recently, though, I got a new phone and I'm thankful that I only had two services for which I was using multifactor authentication because otherwise I would have had to remember to set…

I think the answer is not yet.

Apple's TouchID is a great example of a frictionless authentication mechanism that can be easily augmented with a password to achieve two different factors, but the reality is that isn't a lot of that out there yet.

Re: Password Security: Why the horse battery staple is not correct

#13
post #2

Good point and article. I wish there was a de facto standard password manager/data format (open source, free, works everywhere). As it stands, there are many good ones, and it's hard to choose one , even though any choice is better than no choice.

The password safe format is quite close, it is open source, free, and works most everywhere. PasswordGorilla (https://github.com/zdia/gorilla/wiki) provides support for the format on the three major OS'es (Linux, MacOS, Windows) with the same tool, and there are several Android phone apps. that inter-operate with the format, so you could also have your passwords available on your phone as well.

Lastly, the file storage format was designed by Bruce Shiner, so there is some reasonable assurance that the design was done right due to that heritage.

Re: Password Security: Why the horse battery staple is not correct

#14
This article includes some good points, but puts them together into something inane. It's true that silly constraints lead to trivial changes that lead to crackable passwords. It's also true that assuming brute force over all character classes included in a password is wrong. Those are precisely what the "correct horse battery staple" comic was getting at. Picking words at random (that is, based on a PRNG - not "random" meaning "arbitrarily, by hand") from a dictionary, brute force over that dictionary is the best an attacker can do, and the (dictionary size ^ number of words) calculation is a correct measure of entropy, and with sufficient entropy no passwords will be duplicated. The "correct horse battery staple" hypothesis is that this gets a better score on "entropy per difficulty memorizing" than generating passwords by drawing randomly from a dictionary of typeable characters, and I find that to hold - it's also easier to type actual words.

The other odd point is that we shouldn't be advocating stronger methods of choosing passwords because we should be using multifactor authentication. I don't dispute that we should be using multifactor authentication in more places, but even in that case weak passwords are a problem!

Re: Password Security: Why the horse battery staple is not correct

#15
post #4

I liked this article and largely agree with what it has to say, but I have a question related to a bit at the end. The article recommends using multifactor authentication everywhere, which sounds great for keeping things extra secure. Recently, though, I got a new phone and I'm thankful that I only had two services for which I was using multifactor authentication because otherwise I would have had to remember to set…

I would think that in an ideal world the old device would sign a statement indicating that the new device has full authority to act on its behalf in the future.

In a less-ideal world, it'd be nice if there were a way to sync devices without having to trust an eminently untrustworthy second party.

Re: Password Security: Why the horse battery staple is not correct

#16

For what it's worth, the horse battery staple is completely correct for the problem it's trying to solve. This article is about another (arguably more important) problem.

Yeah, I get why he was trying to tie his point to something well-known. But I found the title maddening. If he had said, say, "Why horse battery staple is solving the wrong problem," I would have read his article with interest. But my increasing irritation as I waited for him to deliver on the promise in the title kept me from properly appreciating his point.

Re: Password Security: Why the horse battery staple is not correct

#17
Linkbaity title from a PhD student with something to sell: the example cited was entirely correct about password strength, and is something the article author admits is important as it is the underpinning of using password managers.

> Even if we entertained the XKCD comic and started training users to select four random words instead of a complex single-word password, I argue that it would not amount to a significant increase in security.

> People are not very creative and tend to think the same way when choosing passwords.

He also completely strawmans the XKCD example: it's not that you should pick four words yourself, it's that you should use four randomly chosen words (using an RNG/PRNG). In this sense, we're just picking fewer random symbols we have an easier time remembering out of a larger symbol space, but this is functionally equivalent to picking passwords of random characters. That was the point of the XKCD comic - that a random chosen password is stronger than your l33tspeak choice of a word or two.

> This means that we should stop blindly classifying password strength based on the number of bits of entropy3, and should consider first and foremost how dictionary-attack resistant the passwords is.

If you look at the right number of bits of entropy, then you get this property: a lot of entropy in the password means that the subspace of passwords it lives in is large, and that a dictionary probe of the space is unlikely to find it quickly. Dictionary attacks are just a particular form of brute force that prioritizes some kinds of passwords over others. In the case you actually followed the XKCD example, you'd have good resistance to dictionary attacks: your password is randomly placed in a large subfield of possible passwords, and the randomness removes any benefit of guessing particular words over words at random.

He's still sticking to the strawman version of the XKCD comic, and attacking a much weaker idea than was actually presented.

> This means that instead of a password strength meter you should be ensuring that there is no skew in the distribution of passwords. If each password is guaranteed to be unique, the advantage of a statistical guessing attack is greatly reduced.

He even admits that the solution actually proposed by the XKCD comic would mitigate the attacks he's talking about, and only his strawman version doesn't.

The rest of the article is obvious security cliches about password managers and 2FA.

I seriously suggest that this guy stop giving security advice that's wrong and clearly just meant to market his own work.

Re: Password Security: Why the horse battery staple is not correct

#18
So I've got a question. Isn't using a password manager with unique, big, long, randomly generated passwords per site essentially the same as two-factor authentication? Something I know (the master password) and something I have (the encrypted password list). The password list lives on my laptop, on my phone, etc. Furthermore, when I use 2 factor auth, I end up storing the lose-your-phone recovery password in the password manager anyway, so I'm probably missing the point of the SMS-, token- or Authy- based validation anyway.

Re: Password Security: Why the horse battery staple is not correct

#19
It seems like the major gripe is against passwords like "p@assword", not against passwords like "correcthorsebatterystaple".

If you truly choose 4 words randomly, the number of possibilities is > 1e24 (at least 1 million words in english language, likely not including slang or names).

Re: Password Security: Why the horse battery staple is not correct

#20

It seems like the major gripe is against passwords like "p@assword", not against passwords like "correcthorsebatterystaple". If you truly choose 4 words randomly, the number of possibilities is > 1e24 (at least 1 million words in english language, likely not including slang or names).

You want the spaces. Leaving them out leads to collisions, which burn entropy.
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