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When All Cigarette Packages Look the Same, Fewer People Buy Them

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Re: When All Cigarette Packages Look the Same, Fewer People Buy Them

#11

Post by benmmurphy »

I would be careful using Australian packaging laws as evidence that plain packaging has an effect on rates of smoking. There has been a lot of controversy about whether it has had an effect or not. There has been a secular decline in smoking in Australia so a continued decrease in smoking is not necessarily evidence of an effective policy.

Here are some alternative points of view:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/health/labo...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepac...

Re: When All Cigarette Packages Look the Same, Fewer People Buy Them

#12

Post by kozhevnikov »

lemming wrote: post #9

Here's another interesting tidbit about plain packaging: the Australian government has been sued by big tobacco over this, under the terms of a trade agreement similar to the TPPA that is currently being negotiated in secret. These agreements allow large multinationals to sue governments who are party to them if they feel that legislation enacted by that government unfairly prejudices their business. The tobacco comp…

Would you prefer it any other way? Instead of going to the High Court your government can just say "what we say goes, and if you happened to be in business X that we no longer like, you're out of luck", I'd rather see them fight in courts. A dying business fighting tooth and nail for their survival is understandable and expected whatever poison they happen to be selling.

Re: When All Cigarette Packages Look the Same, Fewer People Buy Them

#13

Post by kostja_gee »

My uncle from Russia told me, that they sell cigarettes in natural brown packages. When you want to purchase a package in a supermarket you get list of all the brands they offer. But there are no logos anywhere in the market. It is also forbidden to smoke in any public place. I currently live in Germany. It is strange to see how the government tries to stop people from smoking by only raising a higher tax on tobacco. Non of my friends quiet because of that. But some friends quieted when it was forbidden to smoke at restaurants and bars.

Re: When All Cigarette Packages Look the Same, Fewer People Buy Them

#14

Post by lemming »

kozhevnikov wrote: post #12
lemming wrote: post #9

Here's another interesting tidbit about plain packaging: the Australian government has been sued by big tobacco over this, under the terms of a trade agreement similar to the TPPA that is currently being negotiated in secret. These agreements allow large multinationals to sue governments who are party to them if they feel that legislation enacted by that government unfairly prejudices their business. The tobacco comp…

Would you prefer it any other way? Instead of going to the High Court your government can just say "what we say goes, and if you happened to be in business X that we no longer like, you're out of luck", I'd rather see them fight in courts. A dying business fighting tooth and nail for their survival is understandable and expected whatever poison they happen to be selling.

Of course I'd prefer it another way. Whether you like it or not, businesses are subject to all sorts of regulations from governments. Maybe you're a believer in the free market; I'm not. I'd like businesses that make their living exploiting people to be regulated.

Re: When All Cigarette Packages Look the Same, Fewer People Buy Them

#15

Post by jsankey »

benmmurphy wrote: post #11

I would be careful using Australian packaging laws as evidence that plain packaging has an effect on rates of smoking. There has been a lot of controversy about whether it has had an effect or not. There has been a secular decline in smoking in Australia so a continued decrease in smoking is not necessarily evidence of an effective policy. Here are some alternative points of view: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati…

I would be more careful trusting The Australian on anything to do with smoking (and a few other issues) given their writers' links to the tobacco-funded IPA. Media Watch put it a lot better than I could, with sources:

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s4026465.htm

Re: When All Cigarette Packages Look the Same, Fewer People Buy Them

#16

Post by kozhevnikov »

lemming wrote: post #14
kozhevnikov wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you prefer it any other way? Instead of going to the High Court your government can just say "what we say goes, and if you happened to be in business X that we no longer like, you're out of luck", I'd rather see them fight in courts. A dying business fighting tooth and nail for their survival is understandable and expected whatever poison they happen to be selling.

Of course I'd prefer it another way. Whether you like it or not, businesses are subject to all sorts of regulations from governments. Maybe you're a believer in the free market; I'm not. I'd like businesses that make their living exploiting people to be regulated.

Of course, but those regulations come from somewhere, they come from court cases, from subject matter experts' testimonials, from balanced review of views and facts on both sides. We don't want a random politician with questionable morals and unknown contributors banning products or whole sectors of the market bypassing courts and due process.

Re: When All Cigarette Packages Look the Same, Fewer People Buy Them

#17

Post by drinchev »

kostja_gee wrote: post #13

My uncle from Russia told me, that they sell cigarettes in natural brown packages. When you want to purchase a package in a supermarket you get list of all the brands they offer. But there are no logos anywhere in the market. It is also forbidden to smoke in any public place. I currently live in Germany. It is strange to see how the government tries to stop people from smoking by only raising a higher tax on tobacco.…

I live in Berlin and it's not that uncommon to smoke inside bars, actually I'm not sure how legislation is, but there are more than a couple of clubs that you can actually smoke inside. I'm a smoker and I agree that it might be a little better if they change the cigarette box to something else.

Re: When All Cigarette Packages Look the Same, Fewer People Buy Them

#18

Post by benmmurphy »

jsankey wrote: post #15
benmmurphy wrote: post #11

I would be careful using Australian packaging laws as evidence that plain packaging has an effect on rates of smoking. There has been a lot of controversy about whether it has had an effect or not. There has been a secular decline in smoking in Australia so a continued decrease in smoking is not necessarily evidence of an effective policy. Here are some alternative points of view: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati…

I would be more careful trusting The Australian on anything to do with smoking (and a few other issues) given their writers' links to the tobacco-funded IPA. Media Watch put it a lot better than I could, with sources: http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s4026465.htm

Media watch has some interesting quoting.

"Do the figures mean more people are smoking?

Well, no ... the industry admits , the number of smokers fell in 2013 by 1.4%. "

and they link to: http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/1420_bata.pdf

“From 2008 to 2012 smoking incidence, or the number of people smoking, was declining at an average rate of -3.3 per cent a year. Since plain packaging was introduced, that decline rate slowed to -1.4 per cent,” Mr McIntyre said.

“Over the five years in the lead-up to the introduction of plain packaging, total tobacco industry volumes were declining at an average rate of -4.1 per cent.

So the source material appears to support the case that plain packaging has not been an effective policy and may have slowed the decline in smoking.

The plain packaging policy looks a lot like rainmaking. Propose a policy that sounds like it might bring a decrease in smoking in an environment where smoking is already decreasing and then when smoking continues to decrease claim that it was a success.

Re: When All Cigarette Packages Look the Same, Fewer People Buy Them

#19

Post by loup-vaillant »

kozhevnikov wrote: post #12
lemming wrote: post #9

Here's another interesting tidbit about plain packaging: the Australian government has been sued by big tobacco over this, under the terms of a trade agreement similar to the TPPA that is currently being negotiated in secret. These agreements allow large multinationals to sue governments who are party to them if they feel that legislation enacted by that government unfairly prejudices their business. The tobacco comp…

Would you prefer it any other way? Instead of going to the High Court your government can just say "what we say goes, and if you happened to be in business X that we no longer like, you're out of luck", I'd rather see them fight in courts. A dying business fighting tooth and nail for their survival is understandable and expected whatever poison they happen to be selling.

Actually, having the government having the power to dismantle the kind of businesses they don't like is actually a neat idea.

I know our representative governments aren't democratic (despite elections and stuff). But big capitalist corporations are even worse. So, before we get rid of governments and their ludicrously concentrated power, why don't we look at the elephant in the room first: corporations and their even more ludicrously concentrated power?

> A dying business fighting tooth and nail for their survival is understandable and expected whatever poison they happen to be selling.

This analogy (fighting for survival) doesn't really hold: corporations aren't persons. We don't care about corporations, we care about the people affected by them (both inside and outside). A corporation fighting for survival doesn't have the same moral right as a person fighting for survival, despite most laws treating them as "moral persons". Human death is horrible. The end of a business, frankly, is no big deal. (What is a big deal is the subsequent unemployment —but that can be mitigated.)

Re: When All Cigarette Packages Look the Same, Fewer People Buy Them

#20

Post by lucian1900 »

nrinaudo wrote: post #6
NicoJuicy wrote: post #4

Actually, i quitted cigarettes 9 days ago. Although it's irritating when going out (other people that smoke). I don't seem to have a problem just now and i actually smoked for 13 years (i'm 27). I quitted because it's too unhealthy and i wanted to get back in sports... Which probably helped a lot (running / swimming while quitting it). Because i also sleep more now (i'm really forcing myselve to sleep more then 4 hou…

Good job on quitting, but a word of warning: you've not hit the hard patch yet. From what all of my friends who quit smoking experienced, 1 month is the real test. I've seen many people quit smoking cold turkey and do great for 1 month, and then get back to it with a vengeance. I'm not sure what the psychological / physical reason for that is, but thought I'd warn you to be extra vigilant in 3 weeks - don't feel that…

I'm not a smoker, but I wonder: is there a downside to just continue using an e-cigarette? It's the smoke that kills you (and those around you) after all, not the nicotine.
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