Woah. People usually oppose certification because it creates barriers to entry. (In particular, I subscribe to this point of view even though I'm a long-time programmer.) Now this guy opposes certification for the opposite reason - that it makes entry into the profession too easy. In a better world this would've been some kind of clever postmodern provocative trick, like Alan Sokal or whatever, but something tells me this is for real.
Joe the Developer doesn’t need a certificate
11–20 of 71 posts
Re: Joe the Developer doesn’t need a certificate
#12Joe the Developer is entrusted with writing code that can cost people money and cause damage. In some cases, it can endanger lives and businesses. Joe the Developer doesn't need a certificate, but "we the people" (as in the people who have his software inflicted upon them) would rather he did. The certification argument seems to forget whose benefits from certification. It's not the developer - it's the people who ar…
The certification argument seems to forget whose benefits from certification. It's not the developer - it's the people who are able to ensure that there is a baseline level of competence among software developers entrusted with certain kinds of development work. You're making one huge assumption here: that the certification actually certifies anything at all. As a matter of fact, it does not. Certifications are usele…
> You're making one huge assumption here: that the certification actually certifies anything at all. As a matter of fact, it does not. Certifications are useless. Having or not having a certification is no indication of presence or lack of programming skill.
Bet you're not a fan of driver licensing either, right? 'cause a driver license is no indication of the presence or absence of driving skill, either.
Oh, wait, yes it is.
Re: Joe the Developer doesn’t need a certificate
#13Joe the Developer is entrusted with writing code that can cost people money and cause damage. In some cases, it can endanger lives and businesses. Joe the Developer doesn't need a certificate, but "we the people" (as in the people who have his software inflicted upon them) would rather he did. The certification argument seems to forget whose benefits from certification. It's not the developer - it's the people who ar…
>> "Joe the Developer is entrusted with writing code that can cost people money and cause damage. In some cases, it can endanger lives and businesses." That's what tests are for.
But the tests are only as good as the person writing them.
Re: Joe the Developer doesn’t need a certificate
#14> Joe the Plumber heard that you can make more money programming than plumbing and decided to suddenly become a programmer.
Where did Joe the Plumber get that misinformation?
Re: Joe the Developer doesn’t need a certificate
#15Joe the Developer is entrusted with writing code that can cost people money and cause damage. In some cases, it can endanger lives and businesses. Joe the Developer doesn't need a certificate, but "we the people" (as in the people who have his software inflicted upon them) would rather he did. The certification argument seems to forget whose benefits from certification. It's not the developer - it's the people who ar…
>> "Joe the Developer is entrusted with writing code that can cost people money and cause damage. In some cases, it can endanger lives and businesses." That's what tests are for.
No, tests ensure certain functional behaviour under one input.
Certification would ensure that Joe is capable of writing tests that actually test anything, for example.
Re: Joe the Developer doesn’t need a certificate
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ideally, I would agree with you. But at the same time, when I think of the people I know who have certifications, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't trust any of them to write code I would depend on for anything. The systems for certification that are in place today, are IMHO, lacking real credibility. There will always be people who try to beat the system, because they DO see a certification as something that benefits them…
I agree that the existing certification programs may be lacking, but I don't think that negates the need for them. It just means we need to come up with better certifications.
There will always be ways to game the certification process by teaching the test. And there will always be talented, passionate developers who don't test well or don't see the need to memorize something that Google could reveal in a single search or who just think that the certification process is bollocks.
Requiring certification would, it seems to me, make it more difficult to determine which developers to trust. Just because Joe has a piece of paper saying that he knows X, Y, and Z doesn't mean that Joe isn't going to take shortcuts that end up costing the company thousands or millions of dollars (or human lives!). Because Joe has this piece of paper, companies may be lulled into thinking that they don't need to test him as hard or give him as long a trial period before entrusting him with critical systems.
Re: Joe the Developer doesn’t need a certificate
#17Joe the Developer is entrusted with writing code that can cost people money and cause damage. In some cases, it can endanger lives and businesses. Joe the Developer doesn't need a certificate, but "we the people" (as in the people who have his software inflicted upon them) would rather he did. The certification argument seems to forget whose benefits from certification. It's not the developer - it's the people who ar…
I would argue that certification has very little do with the quality of software that a developer would produce or a baseline level of competence. We generally hope that a degree would give you a baseline level of competence, but I'm not sure that is entirely true either.
Degree programs that contain certain requirements could be accredited as being equivalent to a certain certification.
Not all degrees programmes include even the first thing about software engineering - they have plenty of programming, but nothing that would actually ensure that people have a systematic approach to software development.
Re: Joe the Developer doesn’t need a certificate
#18Woah. People usually oppose certification because it creates barriers to entry. (In particular, I subscribe to this point of view even though I'm a long-time programmer.) Now this guy opposes certification for the opposite reason - that it makes entry into the profession too easy . In a better world this would've been some kind of clever postmodern provocative trick, like Alan Sokal or whatever, but something tells m…
An anecdote.
Back in late 90s I managed to get second best score in the country (for that year) in Visual Basic exam under Microsoft Certified Solution Developer program. The catch was that I had have never written a single line in Visual Basic nor had I have any substantial database development experience.
So, yeah, it is entirely possible to get certified and not know a thing about a certification subject. Guy's got a point.
Re: Joe the Developer doesn’t need a certificate
#19I've always said that certifications are a base level of competence for a job, not a proof of expertise.
When a senior dev rants about how they don't need a certificate, I agree, but counter them with the question: If certificates are so easy to get and meaningless, why haven't you bothered to get them?
Note: I can think of a number of reasonable answers why not... but their response to that question is often enlightening as to exactly what kind of dev they are.
Re: Joe the Developer doesn’t need a certificate
#20Woah. People usually oppose certification because it creates barriers to entry. (In particular, I subscribe to this point of view even though I'm a long-time programmer.) Now this guy opposes certification for the opposite reason - that it makes entry into the profession too easy . In a better world this would've been some kind of clever postmodern provocative trick, like Alan Sokal or whatever, but something tells m…
An anecdote. Back in late 90s I managed to get second best score in the country (for that year) in Visual Basic exam under Microsoft Certified Solution Developer program. The catch was that I had have never written a single line in Visual Basic nor had I have any substantial database development experience. So, yeah, it is entirely possible to get certified and not know a thing about a certification subject. Guy's go…
That's just an example of a bad certification process. Being able to provide an example of bad certification does not invalidate the entire concept.