Toward an inclusive hackathon culture • Hacker News Board

Re: Toward an inclusive hackathon culture

#11

Post by tbrownaw » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 9:09 PM UTC

jey wrote: post #8

What is the exact problem with someone saying "One of the reasons I attend hackathons is to hit on chicks"? Is it the phrasing or the concept itself? Would it be more acceptable to say "One of the reasons I attend hackathons is to meet interesting and attractive women", or is the idea itself the problem? I can definitely imagine someone objecting to being described as "a chick" instead of "a woman". However, I don't…

The problem is, "one of the reasons I attend hackathons is to [distract other people from hacking]".

Really, turning it into a gender/oppression/whatever issue obscures the problem -- other attendees are present for a well-known purpose, and you're there not just for some other purpose (which wouldn't necessarily be that big a deal, ex. sponsors/recruiters) but to interfere with their achieving that purpose.

Re: Toward an inclusive hackathon culture

#12

Post by tbrownaw » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 9:16 PM UTC

tedks wrote: post #9

jey wrote: post #8

What is the exact problem with someone saying "One of the reasons I attend hackathons is to hit on chicks"? Is it the phrasing or the concept itself? Would it be more acceptable to say "One of the reasons I attend hackathons is to meet interesting and attractive women", or is the idea itself the problem? I can definitely imagine someone objecting to being described as "a chick" instead of "a woman". However, I don't…

It's the concept. It objectifies women. A hackfest is not a nightclub or a dating site. Having to constantly turn down sexual advances is awkward, and many times physically dangerous, and it has an effect of excluding women from spaces. It's basic male entitlement to think that women should be receptive to their advances, at any time and in any place. Having to fend off creepy, socially awkward men makes conferences…

It's basic male entitlement to think that women should be receptive to their advances, at any time and in any place.

...Yeah, that's bullshit (and offensive misandrist bullshit at that). There's nothing gender-specific, and nothing to do with "entitlement".

It's more failure to recognize that someone who's busy with something they like, probably won't enjoy being interrupted (no matter how much the topic is something you like).

Re: Toward an inclusive hackathon culture

#13

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 9:18 PM UTC

tedks wrote: post #9

jey wrote: post #8

What is the exact problem with someone saying "One of the reasons I attend hackathons is to hit on chicks"? Is it the phrasing or the concept itself? Would it be more acceptable to say "One of the reasons I attend hackathons is to meet interesting and attractive women", or is the idea itself the problem? I can definitely imagine someone objecting to being described as "a chick" instead of "a woman". However, I don't…

It's the concept. It objectifies women. A hackfest is not a nightclub or a dating site. Having to constantly turn down sexual advances is awkward, and many times physically dangerous, and it has an effect of excluding women from spaces. It's basic male entitlement to think that women should be receptive to their advances, at any time and in any place. Having to fend off creepy, socially awkward men makes conferences…

I think that that may be too quick to infer group entitlement when the underlying issue is individual narcissism.

Re: Toward an inclusive hackathon culture

#14

Post by tedks » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 9:58 PM UTC

tbrownaw wrote: post #12

tedks wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the concept. It objectifies women. A hackfest is not a nightclub or a dating site. Having to constantly turn down sexual advances is awkward, and many times physically dangerous, and it has an effect of excluding women from spaces. It's basic male entitlement to think that women should be receptive to their advances, at any time and in any place. Having to fend off creepy, socially awkward men makes conferences…

It's basic male entitlement to think that women should be receptive to their advances, at any time and in any place. ...Yeah, that's bullshit (and offensive misandrist bullshit at that). There's nothing gender-specific, and nothing to do with "entitlement". It's more failure to recognize that someone who's busy with something they like, probably won't enjoy being interrupted (no matter how much the topic is something…

Haha, "misandry."

Great way to out yourself as a redpiller; I sincerely hope you gain the emotional maturity necessary to overcome your mail privilege/entitlement and have a fulfilling life.

Re: Toward an inclusive hackathon culture

#15

Post by jey » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 10:28 PM UTC

tbrownaw wrote: post #11

jey wrote: post #8

What is the exact problem with someone saying "One of the reasons I attend hackathons is to hit on chicks"? Is it the phrasing or the concept itself? Would it be more acceptable to say "One of the reasons I attend hackathons is to meet interesting and attractive women", or is the idea itself the problem? I can definitely imagine someone objecting to being described as "a chick" instead of "a woman". However, I don't…

The problem is, "one of the reasons I attend hackathons is to [distract other people from hacking]". Really, turning it into a gender/oppression/whatever issue obscures the problem -- other attendees are present for a well-known purpose, and you're there not just for some other purpose (which wouldn't necessarily be that big a deal, ex. sponsors/recruiters) but to interfere with their achieving that purpose.

I agree that it's a problem if someone is there just to cause a distraction and not there for the hackathon itself. However, when I attend a hackathon, it's because I'm legitimately interested in hacking on X and in meeting other people interested in X. (If I only wanted to efficiently write code and not meet cool people, I'd just do it at my own desk!)

Re: Toward an inclusive hackathon culture

#16

Post by kelukelugames » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 10:33 PM UTC

gfosco wrote: post #10

kelukelugames wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you link the 14 + 3 apps and let us evaluate them? I do believe discrimination exists in our industry and have written about it, but I don't like to automatically assume its the default reason.

This is the full list: http://mhacks-iv.challengepost.com/submissions I can't seem to find a list of the top 14. Here's an article than mentions a few of them: http://t.co/DdOmmQiaLY The ones we liked: Leaftagger (a very useful developer tool for iOS developers) http://mhacks-iv.challengepost.com/submissions/26195-leaftag... Comfort App (not my favorite idea, but the entire process worked flawlessly, and it was very…

Thanks for sharing the links. To be honest, I am not well-informed enough to judge them.

As for: "Another trend I see is that if the hack appears sexy or innovative...it will go far." I hate that too, but now accept it as reality. I am actively working on my showmanship.

Re: Toward an inclusive hackathon culture

#17

Post by jey » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 10:34 PM UTC

tedks wrote: post #9

jey wrote: post #8

What is the exact problem with someone saying "One of the reasons I attend hackathons is to hit on chicks"? Is it the phrasing or the concept itself? Would it be more acceptable to say "One of the reasons I attend hackathons is to meet interesting and attractive women", or is the idea itself the problem? I can definitely imagine someone objecting to being described as "a chick" instead of "a woman". However, I don't…

It's the concept. It objectifies women. A hackfest is not a nightclub or a dating site. Having to constantly turn down sexual advances is awkward, and many times physically dangerous, and it has an effect of excluding women from spaces. It's basic male entitlement to think that women should be receptive to their advances, at any time and in any place. Having to fend off creepy, socially awkward men makes conferences…

It seems an overgeneralization to claim that a heterosexual man flirting at a hackathon is by definition "objectifying" her or that it implies that he thinks "that women should be receptive to their advances at any time and in any place". It is equally plausible that he's interested in her as a person (and not as a mere object), and that he respects her right to reject his advances. I acknowledge that it's certainly possible that a man (or woman) could make advances in ways that are disrespectful and that shouldn't be tolerated, but I don't see how expressing romantic or sexual interest in this context is intrinsically evil.

I agree that disrespectful behavior should not be tolerated, but I don't believe that all expressions of romantic interest outside of dating websites and nightclubs are intrinsically disrespectful.

Re: Toward an inclusive hackathon culture

#18

Post by tedks » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 11:54 PM UTC

jey wrote: post #17

tedks wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the concept. It objectifies women. A hackfest is not a nightclub or a dating site. Having to constantly turn down sexual advances is awkward, and many times physically dangerous, and it has an effect of excluding women from spaces. It's basic male entitlement to think that women should be receptive to their advances, at any time and in any place. Having to fend off creepy, socially awkward men makes conferences…

It seems an overgeneralization to claim that a heterosexual man flirting at a hackathon is by definition "objectifying" her or that it implies that he thinks "that women should be receptive to their advances at any time and in any place". It is equally plausible that he's interested in her as a person (and not as a mere object), and that he respects her right to reject his advances. I acknowledge that it's certainly…

I don't recall stating anything about definitions; however, if you're a man approaching someone at a hackathon, you probably don't know the person otherwise (or you'd do so at a more appropriate place and time) and you're probably doing so on the basis of appearance (i.e., objectifying women). You're probably doing so because you think she'll be receptive (I have no idea what logic constructs these thoughts but men have them nonetheless).

I would say that your comment is a perfect example of male entitlement. Is it really so impossible to restrain yourself for the few hours a hackathon lasts?

Regardless of whether you actually are the one "nice guy" who would be respectful of a declined proposition, women have no such luxury. Because of our cultural focus on blaming women victims of sexual assault, women are taught (and rightly so) to be cautious of men, and a man becoming violent or threatening because of rejection is incredibly common. Forcing a woman to go through an incredibly stressful and frankly frightening experience, because you feel entitled to do so, is simply chauvinist. It demonstrates that you think your right to hit on women is primary compared to women's safety and mental well-being.

If you don't think that's intrinsically evil, I guess you just don't think women are human to the same degree you are, which is pretty common sentiment in tech circles.

Re: Toward an inclusive hackathon culture

#19

Post by tedks » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 11:57 PM UTC

tbrownaw wrote: post #7

tedks wrote: post #5

It's depressing that in 2014 this is something being discussed at all. It's equally depressing that otherwise intelligent people will try to argue against codes of conduct, not realizing that as white men, they have literally no say in the matter (or at least shouldn't, even though many throw around their weight and privilege in order to disrupt things). I'd think that in a community so forward-looking and forward-th…

not realizing that as white men, they have literally no say in the matter ...Wait, we're excluding people from discussions on the basis of race and gender now? And calling that "forward-thinking"?

Uh, yes, when it comes to women's safety and women's rights, men have literally nothing to add to the discussion. It isn't the 1800s. Men do not own women's bodies or spaces.

Thinking that your opinion is universally relevant is simple entitlement.

Re: Toward an inclusive hackathon culture

#20

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 12:08 AM UTC

tedks wrote: post #5

It's depressing that in 2014 this is something being discussed at all. It's equally depressing that otherwise intelligent people will try to argue against codes of conduct, not realizing that as white men, they have literally no say in the matter (or at least shouldn't, even though many throw around their weight and privilege in order to disrupt things). I'd think that in a community so forward-looking and forward-th…

> It's equally depressing that otherwise intelligent people will try to argue against codes of conduct, not realizing that as white men, they have literally no say in the matter

If its codes of conduct for a community they are part of, they certainly do have a say (and can reasonably expected to leave the community and form their own if they are denied that say.)