How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty • Hacker News Board

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#11

Post by mikeash » Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 8:38 PM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #7

>And when I’m late, I speed. How the poor are treated in our country is a crime, yes, but if you can't afford a speeding ticket, you can avoid getting a speeding ticket by not speeding. Going faster than the speed limit doesn't really get you there appreciably faster, but it does increase your chances of being in an accident substantially and greatly increases your chances of getting a speeding ticket. Stealing food…

My general guideline for comment threads is that when somebody starts pulling out individual sentences by themselves to quote and then argue with them, they're no longer contributing and can be ignored.

I didn't think it would apply to articles too, but here we are.

The article goes over a huge number of factors and details about life in this area. Why did you think this one piece was worth pulling out and making an obvious comment on? "If you can't afford a ticket, don't speed." Well duh. Who are you talking to? That woman isn't reading your comment, and I'm sure she already knows what you're trying to tell her anyway.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#12

Post by seanflyon » Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 8:38 PM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #7

>And when I’m late, I speed. How the poor are treated in our country is a crime, yes, but if you can't afford a speeding ticket, you can avoid getting a speeding ticket by not speeding. Going faster than the speed limit doesn't really get you there appreciably faster, but it does increase your chances of being in an accident substantially and greatly increases your chances of getting a speeding ticket. Stealing food…

The problem is that it is not possible to drive (or do much of anything) without breaking the law. There are more laws than any single person has ever read and ignorance is not excuse.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#13

Post by freehunter » Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 8:41 PM UTC

crazypyro wrote: post #10

freehunter wrote: post #7

>And when I’m late, I speed. How the poor are treated in our country is a crime, yes, but if you can't afford a speeding ticket, you can avoid getting a speeding ticket by not speeding. Going faster than the speed limit doesn't really get you there appreciably faster, but it does increase your chances of being in an accident substantially and greatly increases your chances of getting a speeding ticket. Stealing food…

Did you read the article? It's much more than just complaining about speeding tickets... Speeding tickets and other small, petty tickets are turning into weeks in jail and thousands in fines, mostly for poor blacks, because of ridiculous city zoning and fragmented court systems.

Yes, I obviously read it since I said "the way they're treated is criminal" and also quoted the article itself. The million little cuts is terrible. But one of the little cuts, which the article makes out to be a very common one, is easily avoided. Don't shrug it off with a "I have a lead foot, it's no big deal". It obviously is a big deal because it's leading to people going to prison. How many people would never find themselves in this horrible spiral if they just obeyed the speed limit?

I was driving on the Illinois tollway over the weekend, which is under construction and at a 45mph speed limit. I was in a hurry to meet a client, but I'm at a point in my life where I can't afford the $375 ticket for speeding in a construction zone. So, with people flying around me at 70mph, I set my cruise control to 45.

Because the $375 ticket would cripple me financially right now. It's not a hard concept.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#14

Post by ChuckMcM » Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 8:43 PM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #7

>And when I’m late, I speed. How the poor are treated in our country is a crime, yes, but if you can't afford a speeding ticket, you can avoid getting a speeding ticket by not speeding. Going faster than the speed limit doesn't really get you there appreciably faster, but it does increase your chances of being in an accident substantially and greatly increases your chances of getting a speeding ticket. Stealing food…

Technically true, there is an interesting book you might want to read titled, "Scarcity: Why Having Too Little Means So Much" (http://www.amazon.com/Scarcity-Having-Little-Means-Much/dp/0...). Its central theme is that scarcity changes the value calculus of our decision making process, and it isn't just about money, it can be making poor choices when you don't think you have enough time for example.

In order to choose not to speed, once speeding is inevitable because of a lack of time, the woman in the article has to accept the consequence of being late (forced) or the consequence of getting a ticket (probabilistic), and she (and most people) choose the risk choice rather than the 'forced' choice. The correct answer is to wind that transaction back to what she was doing before she was late, and finding the places where she ended up with not enough time, and those are then filled with a series of what appear to be inconsequential choices with respect to time vs time availability.

I found it a fascinating read, and it gave me quite a different perspective on problems like these where the 'obvious' answer seems to be "if it hurts, then stop doing that."

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#15

Post by crazypyro » Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 8:45 PM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #13

crazypyro wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the article? It's much more than just complaining about speeding tickets... Speeding tickets and other small, petty tickets are turning into weeks in jail and thousands in fines, mostly for poor blacks, because of ridiculous city zoning and fragmented court systems.

Yes, I obviously read it since I said "the way they're treated is criminal" and also quoted the article itself. The million little cuts is terrible. But one of the little cuts, which the article makes out to be a very common one, is easily avoided. Don't shrug it off with a "I have a lead foot, it's no big deal". It obviously is a big deal because it's leading to people going to prison. How many people would never fi…

Right, but that literally has nothing to do with the article. People are also getting tickets for things like not having proof of insurance and expired registrations. Furthermore, the system is set up in such a way of encouraging the police to use predatory tactics to produce revenue. This includes giving tickets for things that most other departments consider not being worth enforcing by tickets. Boiling down the argument to "Don't speed if you can't afford" it adds nothing to conversation and completely misses the point of the article.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#16

Post by freehunter » Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 8:46 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #11

freehunter wrote: post #7

>And when I’m late, I speed. How the poor are treated in our country is a crime, yes, but if you can't afford a speeding ticket, you can avoid getting a speeding ticket by not speeding. Going faster than the speed limit doesn't really get you there appreciably faster, but it does increase your chances of being in an accident substantially and greatly increases your chances of getting a speeding ticket. Stealing food…

My general guideline for comment threads is that when somebody starts pulling out individual sentences by themselves to quote and then argue with them, they're no longer contributing and can be ignored. I didn't think it would apply to articles too, but here we are. The article goes over a huge number of factors and details about life in this area. Why did you think this one piece was worth pulling out and making an…

A couple of those fines were for speeding

That was Bolden’s second arrest. In 2009 she was arrested in the town of Bel-Ridge for a warrant on a speeding ticket.

The Foristell warrant stemmed from a speeding ticket in 2011

“These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do — speeding

Both were speeding tickets that he had neglected to pay.

a warrant stemming from a 20-year-old speeding ticket.

Speed seems to be a major factor throughout the entire article. Would removing the one thing solve the problem? No. Would it help some people? Undoubtedly.

It's not picking out one sentence. It's picking out one thing that the article said over and over again is a major factor in people going to jail over minor offenses.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#17

Post by freehunter » Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 8:48 PM UTC

crazypyro wrote: post #15

freehunter wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I obviously read it since I said "the way they're treated is criminal" and also quoted the article itself. The million little cuts is terrible. But one of the little cuts, which the article makes out to be a very common one, is easily avoided. Don't shrug it off with a "I have a lead foot, it's no big deal". It obviously is a big deal because it's leading to people going to prison. How many people would never fi…

Right, but that literally has nothing to do with the article. People are also getting tickets for things like not having proof of insurance and expired registrations. Furthermore, the system is set up in such a way of encouraging the police to use predatory tactics to produce revenue. This includes giving tickets for things that most other departments consider not being worth enforcing by tickets. Boiling down the ar…

No, the point of the article is people going to jail over minor offenses that snowball into major jail time. And one minor offense they call out repeatedly is speeding. Speeding is the beginning of the record for numerous people cited throughout the article.

It's a controllable factor which costs literally nothing, unlike registration and insurance. So why does speeding claim so many?

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#18

Post by mikeash » Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 8:49 PM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #16

mikeash wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My general guideline for comment threads is that when somebody starts pulling out individual sentences by themselves to quote and then argue with them, they're no longer contributing and can be ignored. I didn't think it would apply to articles too, but here we are. The article goes over a huge number of factors and details about life in this area. Why did you think this one piece was worth pulling out and making an…

A couple of those fines were for speeding That was Bolden’s second arrest. In 2009 she was arrested in the town of Bel-Ridge for a warrant on a speeding ticket. The Foristell warrant stemmed from a speeding ticket in 2011 “These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do — speeding Both were speeding tickets that he had neglected to pay. a warrant stemming from a 20-year-old speeding ticket. Speed seems to be…

I'm referring specifically to the act of quoting and responding to a single sentence. The representativeness of that sentence doesn't come into it. I'm not saying the act itself is inherently wrong, I'm saying that in my experience it's a reliable indicator that someone is no longer saying anything useful.

Again, who are you talking to? These people aren't reading your comment. You wouldn't be telling them anything new anyway. They already know that they shouldn't break traffic rules if they can't afford the fines. I'm certain it's not a problem with lack of knowledge in that area. None of us are under any illusions that it's OK to speed if you can't pay the ticket. So what's the point of saying what you said? All I can come up with is that it makes you feel superior.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#19

Post by freehunter » Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 8:50 PM UTC

seanflyon wrote: post #12

freehunter wrote: post #7

>And when I’m late, I speed. How the poor are treated in our country is a crime, yes, but if you can't afford a speeding ticket, you can avoid getting a speeding ticket by not speeding. Going faster than the speed limit doesn't really get you there appreciably faster, but it does increase your chances of being in an accident substantially and greatly increases your chances of getting a speeding ticket. Stealing food…

The problem is that it is not possible to drive (or do much of anything) without breaking the law. There are more laws than any single person has ever read and ignorance is not excuse.

That is a problem, yes, but I didn't see anything in the article citing obscure laws that no one knows about. The closest I saw was not subscribing to the only approved trash service.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#20

Post by crazypyro » Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 8:52 PM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #17

crazypyro wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but that literally has nothing to do with the article. People are also getting tickets for things like not having proof of insurance and expired registrations. Furthermore, the system is set up in such a way of encouraging the police to use predatory tactics to produce revenue. This includes giving tickets for things that most other departments consider not being worth enforcing by tickets. Boiling down the ar…

No, the point of the article is people going to jail over minor offenses that snowball into major jail time. And one minor offense they call out repeatedly is speeding. Speeding is the beginning of the record for numerous people cited throughout the article. It's a controllable factor which costs literally nothing, unlike registration and insurance. So why does speeding claim so many?

Speeding claims so many because the extraneous police departments in STL. Furthermore, poor are being targeted by speeding tickets at an even higher rate than average because police expect to get more ticket possibilities. The bottom line is police departments need to get revenue to sustain themselves and instead of looking elsewhere, they are using predatory tactics that disproportionately hurt the poor.

You arguing in a similar way to the people that say if Mike Brown didn't want to get shot, he shouldn't have been walking down the middle of the street. The problem is that all of those poor people getting tickets at a higher rate is symbolic of a larger, societal problem (poverty), in much the same way that Mike Brown's death was symbolic of racism (and also poverty too, of course).