I love all the americans in this post tying to explain why the Dutch are wrong and they should be worried.
It really proves their point.
Dutch travellers react calmly to loss of flight MH17 – “we are not America”
11–20 of 30 posts
Re: Dutch travellers react calmly to loss of flight MH17 – “we are not America”
#12This one is no mystery. There are deleted statements for this from the separatists.
1. Russian government gives BUK to separatists. (what could go wrong?). We have deleted tweets from the separatists bragging about their newly acquired BUK and youtube videos of the BUK being driven around.
2. Separatists think they are shooting down a Ukrainian transport plane. They brag about shooting down a plane at the time the plane went down. They alert journalists who go to the site and are surprised to find bodies and passports. The videos are on youtube.
So if the Dutch or Dutch government are not mad at the Russians, then dunno what it would take.
Re: Dutch travellers react calmly to loss of flight MH17 – “we are not America”
#13"This is something that never, never happens, and it's unlikely to happen again. " This wasn't an equipment failure or a natural disaster, so I don't really agree with this line of thinking. "But we are not going to call for the government to go and catch the perpetrators or go to war." If this was an intentional act, we do need to do something about it (so it doesn't happen again). Extreme pacifism just leads to bul…
I, for one, am glad that hitting back is not the only strategy available to ensure that the chances of this happening again are minimized. And I'm glad that there are governments in place in this world that share this perspective.
When you do not have the capability of hitting back, it is not a strategy available to you.
Re: Dutch travellers react calmly to loss of flight MH17 – “we are not America”
#14"This is something that never, never happens, and it's unlikely to happen again. " This wasn't an equipment failure or a natural disaster, so I don't really agree with this line of thinking. "But we are not going to call for the government to go and catch the perpetrators or go to war." If this was an intentional act, we do need to do something about it (so it doesn't happen again). Extreme pacifism just leads to bul…
Intentional or not, there have been, at most, three passenger jets hit by anti-aircraft missiles in the last thirty years. Keep in mind that even if this happened once a year, flying would still be far, far safer than driving.
I will take a car crash over a plane crash any day!
Re: Dutch travellers react calmly to loss of flight MH17 – “we are not America”
#15"This is something that never, never happens, and it's unlikely to happen again. " This wasn't an equipment failure or a natural disaster, so I don't really agree with this line of thinking. "But we are not going to call for the government to go and catch the perpetrators or go to war." If this was an intentional act, we do need to do something about it (so it doesn't happen again). Extreme pacifism just leads to bul…
Intentional or not, there have been, at most, three passenger jets hit by anti-aircraft missiles in the last thirty years. Keep in mind that even if this happened once a year, flying would still be far, far safer than driving.
I realize this is a different mode of transportation, but what about German U-Boats (and I'm sure other nations) sinking passenger ships in the start of WW2? Attacks on civilian vessels shouldn't be tolerated.
Re: Dutch travellers react calmly to loss of flight MH17 – “we are not America”
#16This one is no mystery. There are deleted statements for this from the separatists. 1. Russian government gives BUK to separatists. (what could go wrong?). We have deleted tweets from the separatists bragging about their newly acquired BUK and youtube videos of the BUK being driven around. 2. Separatists think they are shooting down a Ukrainian transport plane. They brag about shooting down a plane at the time the pl…
> So if the Dutch or Dutch government are not mad at the Russians, then dunno what it would take.
The guy mentioned in the article isn't representative for all of the Netherlands. I heard many Dutch people speak of war.
The Dutch government is generally veryyyy reserved and politically correct. They don't often act fast or decisively and are certainly not going to use a lot of violence.
Re: Dutch travellers react calmly to loss of flight MH17 – “we are not America”
#17If someone got punched in the face in front of you and then looked at you and said "I'm not going to do anything, the chances of that happening again are slim and I'm not some brutish American" would you be impressed or would you think they're a little crazy?
Bad example since you're implying that they're continuing to stand in front of the person who punched them. It's not like Dutch flights are going to continue to fly over that part of Ukraine.
Better example, someone at a concert gets hit with a bottle someone else threw. It was the only bottle thrown at that concert or any other concert they've ever been to. They've know that it does happen though very rarely. They look at you and say "I'm not going to do anything major, the chances of that happening again are slim." You suspect they won't return to that same venue however. Would you be impressed or would you think they're a little crazy?
Personally, I'd be impressed.
Re: Dutch travellers react calmly to loss of flight MH17 – “we are not America”
#18"This is something that never, never happens, and it's unlikely to happen again. " This wasn't an equipment failure or a natural disaster, so I don't really agree with this line of thinking. "But we are not going to call for the government to go and catch the perpetrators or go to war." If this was an intentional act, we do need to do something about it (so it doesn't happen again). Extreme pacifism just leads to bul…
Why on earth would it be intentional? It's pretty much the worst PR possible for Russia. In fact, the only parties who have anything to gain from the plane going down are Kyiv and the US. It was more than likely an unfortunate accident, as the separatists had shot down several fighter jets and military transports in the same area in the days leading up to MH17... On previous days MH17 had also flown south of Donetsk.
> It's pretty much the worst PR possible for Russia.
Sometimes military actions are taken for reasons other than PR.
> In fact, the only parties who have anything to gain from the plane going down are Kyiv and the US.
Making civilian air travel perceived as unsafe through the Ukraine (and thus, also, into or out of the Ukraine) increases economic pressure on the Ukrainian government to reach an accommodation with the rebels (the PR downside may overwhelm that advantage, but its not impossible to conceive that the rebels might see it as a net gain.) Its not that uncommon of a reason for rebel/separatist forces to attack civilian transport (air or otherwise), tourist, or other targets.
That's not to say I think that it was intentional -- I think that an accident is, given other incidents in the region, the most obvious explanation. OTOH, its not inconceivable that it could be intentional, and there is a clear potential motive for doing it intentionally.
Re: Dutch travellers react calmly to loss of flight MH17 – “we are not America”
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
Intentional or not, there have been, at most, three passenger jets hit by anti-aircraft missiles in the last thirty years. Keep in mind that even if this happened once a year, flying would still be far, far safer than driving.
> Intentional or not, there have been, at most, three passenger jets hit by anti-aircraft missiles in the last thirty years. At most 3 is incorrect. Not counting MH17, there are at least four civilian passenger aircraft that were definitively shot down by missiles, and more that were suspected to be (or were definitively shot down, but where I can't find definitive information on the "by missiles" part) in the last 3…
Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerolinee_Itavia_Flight_870, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Rhodesia_Flight_RH825, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Rhodesia_Flight_RH827, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Arab_Airlines_Flight_114, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_3, T&G Aviation DC-7
and more shot down by fighter aircraft.
There are far more than a dozen incidents in the past decades.
Re: Dutch travellers react calmly to loss of flight MH17 – “we are not America”
#20Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Intentional or not, there have been, at most, three passenger jets hit by anti-aircraft missiles in the last thirty years. At most 3 is incorrect. Not counting MH17, there are at least four civilian passenger aircraft that were definitively shot down by missiles, and more that were suspected to be (or were definitively shot down, but where I can't find definitive information on the "by missiles" part) in the last 3…
Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerolinee_Itavia_Flight_870 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Rhodesia_Flight_RH825 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Rhodesia_Flight_RH827 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Arab_Airlines_Flight_114 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_3 , T&G Aviation DC-7 and more shot down by fighter aircraft. There are far more tha…
Those (and KAL 007) are all outside of the thirty year window, but within a 40-year window. But, yes, there are lots of past incidents.