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Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

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Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

#11

Post by quink »

mjec wrote: post #3
quink wrote: post #2

http://www.zdnet.com/au/senate-calls-for-release-of-aec-vote... http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/it-pro/government-it/vexatio...

The Electoral Commission has since refused to comply with the Senate order to release the source code: http://lee-rhiannon.greensmps.org.au/sites/default/files/ron...

Hi mjec, thanks.

I didn't know about this latest turn of events! This quote in particular is extremely disturbing... I noticed it in the FOI rejection, but now they're telling this to the Senate:

> In relation to the source code for the Senate counting system, I am advised that publication of the software could leave the voting system open to hacking or manipulation.

This was after the Senate asking, this argument has nothing to do even with the FOI request.

And a previous thread on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/australia/comments/29t2q7/aec_threat...

Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

#13

Post by colmmacc »

mlandauer wrote: post #10
colmmacc wrote: post #8

Visibility of the source code is a side-show in electronic voting systems. Even if the source code is published, there is no way to be sure that that is the code that is running on the hardware, or to be certain that the hardware itself has not been tampered with. Votes need to be printed out on paper, verified by the voter, and counted by hand. Still, when we had the source code for the Irish system (now abandoned d…

The Australian software is not used for recording votes. It's used to assist the counting of physical ballot papers because the Senate vote counting system is extremely complicated. In this environment it's more straightforward to ensure the integrity of the software (as long as it's open and verifiable of course)

In that case a simpler fix would be to allow any independent party (within reason) to supply and use their own software and render their own tally.

If the parties are mutually distrusting, and their tallies still agree, that can be enough to trust the outcome. Auditing the source code has no real utility; it's worthless because you can't be sure that the code you've audited is the code actually running. "Open and verifiable" means nothing in that context.

Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

#14

Post by mlandauer »

sergiotapia wrote: post #12

A counting algorithm is a trade secret? How did this even come to be?

The algorithm is public. It's the Australian Electoral Commission's implementation of it, their software, that's used in public elections that they're calling a trade secret.

Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

#15

Post by mlandauer »

colmmacc wrote: post #13
mlandauer wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Australian software is not used for recording votes. It's used to assist the counting of physical ballot papers because the Senate vote counting system is extremely complicated. In this environment it's more straightforward to ensure the integrity of the software (as long as it's open and verifiable of course)

In that case a simpler fix would be to allow any independent party (within reason) to supply and use their own software and render their own tally. If the parties are mutually distrusting, and their tallies still agree, that can be enough to trust the outcome. Auditing the source code has no real utility; it's worthless because you can't be sure that the code you've audited is the code actually running. "Open and ver…

I would prefer if the input to the software was published and anyone could verify the outcome. Unfortunately, currently none of this information is published and the whole system is based on trust.

Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

#16

Post by zmmmmm »

mjec wrote: post #3
quink wrote: post #2

http://www.zdnet.com/au/senate-calls-for-release-of-aec-vote... http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/it-pro/government-it/vexatio...

The Electoral Commission has since refused to comply with the Senate order to release the source code: http://lee-rhiannon.greensmps.org.au/sites/default/files/ron...

I'm only replying to say a personal thank you for pursuing this. Australia has such weak individual rights, it is so important that people like yourself put your hand to pursue them on occasions like this when it is important. Keep going!

Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

#17

Post by mjec »

josephg wrote: post #4

Thats appalling. As an Australian citizen, who should I call about this to voice my objection?

Write to your Senator, say the AEC's refusal to comply[1] with Senate Order 330[2] is wrong and you'd like it challenged.

(Note that while it was moved by a Greens Senator, I'm not affiliated with the Greens and this is not a party political thing that's going on)

Failing that, maybe consider donating to my fund to fight this decision in court: http://pozi.be/easycountaat?ra=247325

[1]: http://lee-rhiannon.greensmps.org.au/sites/default/files/ron...

[2]: http://lee-rhiannon.greensmps.org.au/content/news-stories/up...

Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

#18

Post by retroencabulato »

colmmacc wrote: post #8

Visibility of the source code is a side-show in electronic voting systems. Even if the source code is published, there is no way to be sure that that is the code that is running on the hardware, or to be certain that the hardware itself has not been tampered with. Votes need to be printed out on paper, verified by the voter, and counted by hand. Still, when we had the source code for the Irish system (now abandoned d…

Australian elections ARE pen and paper.

The ballots are entered (by hand AFAIK) into the AEC's central system to compute the complex preference flows. Realistically, the algorithm isn't that complicated, and the ABC does a good job at guestimating it [1]. This is why it is so surprising they refuse to release it, even after the Senate passed a motion demanding its release [2].

[1] http://www.abc.net.au/news/federal-election-2013/results/sen...

[2] http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/550114/electoral_com...

Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

#19

Post by quink »

quink wrote: post #11
mjec wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Electoral Commission has since refused to comply with the Senate order to release the source code: http://lee-rhiannon.greensmps.org.au/sites/default/files/ron...

Hi mjec, thanks. I didn't know about this latest turn of events! This quote in particular is extremely disturbing... I noticed it in the FOI rejection, but now they're telling this to the Senate: > In relation to the source code for the Senate counting system, I am advised that publication of the software could leave the voting system open to hacking or manipulation. This was after the Senate asking, this argument ha…

OK, just noticed Josh Taylor posting this article on ZDnet in the same minute as this comment's parent: http://www.zdnet.com/au/government-blocks-aec-source-code-re...

Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”

#20

Post by XaspR8d »

harkyns_castle wrote: post #9
mjec wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Electoral Commission has since refused to comply with the Senate order to release the source code: http://lee-rhiannon.greensmps.org.au/sites/default/files/ron...

"I am advised that publication of the software could leave the voting system open to hacking or manipulation". Well, if the problems are there, opening up the source to more eyes strikes me as the obvious thing to do; or should those with the knowledge of how to manipulate it as it stands be kept to the bare minimum? :) But in any case, at least the meat of the implementation of the algorithm should be OK to release…

> "I am advised that publication of the software could leave the voting system open to hacking or manipulation".

Certainly reminds me of this xkcd: https://xkcd.com/463/ It sounds like security...

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