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Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

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11–20 of 63 posts

Re: Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

#11
One thing that having a kid taught me is that sleep deprivation really hurts my productivity as a programmer. It may be that some people can sleep 5 hours and function just fine, I'm not going to say everybody needs the same amount of sleep. But when it comes to work ridiculous hours I've yet to see someone regularly claiming 100 hours work weeks outperform me over any length of time.

If I can get in the zone and achieve peak productivity for 8 hours that is an extremely successful day. If I do that and then get 16 hours of exercise, healthy eating, and sleep then the next day I'll have made more progress in my unconscious and hit a positive feedback loop where elegant solutions to difficult problems present themselves effortlessly.

Contrast to my youth where I'd regularly "work" 12-16 hour days. Then I had the mentality that 5pm is a half-day, so if progress wasn't great by then I still had another 7 hours! This can lead to a negative feedback loop where you spend more hours trying to compensate for poor performance earlier.

I'm not claiming this as a universal truth, some people probably have greater capacity than me, but I know how easy it is to fool oneself.

Re: Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

#12
"Sleep Drives Metabolite Clearance from the Adult Brain

The conservation of sleep across all animal species suggests that sleep serves a vital function. We here report that sleep has a critical function in ensuring metabolic homeostasis ... the restorative function of sleep may be a consequence of the enhanced removal of potentially neurotoxic waste products that accumulate in the awake central nervous system."

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/342/6156/373

TL;DR: sleep is necessary, otherwise it probably wouldn't have evolved in so many different species. If you're really lucky (and a dolphin), you can get by with only sleeping one hemisphere of your brain at a time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unihemispheric_slow-wave_sleep

Re: Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

#14

One thing that having a kid taught me is that sleep deprivation really hurts my productivity as a programmer. It may be that some people can sleep 5 hours and function just fine, I'm not going to say everybody needs the same amount of sleep. But when it comes to work ridiculous hours I've yet to see someone regularly claiming 100 hours work weeks outperform me over any length of time. If I can get in the zone and ach…

>I'm not going to say everybody needs the same amount of sleep.

I am going to go one step further and claim that anyone who says they work 10+ hour days regularly and are still productive is full of shit. I have seen too many of those people either burn up or not actually be able to keep up with me when crunch time comes and a two day caffeine and less legal binge is the only way to do what you know needs to get done to ship.

What I have seen for people who supposedly work ridiculous hours is a largely useless body warming a chair and keeping middle management happy by being easily visible and "manageable".

Re: Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

#15
post #14

One thing that having a kid taught me is that sleep deprivation really hurts my productivity as a programmer. It may be that some people can sleep 5 hours and function just fine, I'm not going to say everybody needs the same amount of sleep. But when it comes to work ridiculous hours I've yet to see someone regularly claiming 100 hours work weeks outperform me over any length of time. If I can get in the zone and ach…

>I'm not going to say everybody needs the same amount of sleep. I am going to go one step further and claim that anyone who says they work 10+ hour days regularly and are still productive is full of shit. I have seen too many of those people either burn up or not actually be able to keep up with me when crunch time comes and a two day caffeine and less legal binge is the only way to do what you know needs to get done…

My impression is that people who spend 10+ hour day in work tend to spend a lot of time socializing, on facebook or otherwise wasting.

The problem often is that their needs to socialize and relax are not lower. Without realizing it, they started to use time spend in work to fulfill those needs. It slows down everybody, but looks good to management.

Re: Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

#16
post #12

"Sleep Drives Metabolite Clearance from the Adult Brain The conservation of sleep across all animal species suggests that sleep serves a vital function. We here report that sleep has a critical function in ensuring metabolic homeostasis ... the restorative function of sleep may be a consequence of the enhanced removal of potentially neurotoxic waste products that accumulate in the awake central nervous system." http:…

Related google tech talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hAw1z8GdE8

Somewhere in the middle he describes experiments they made with sleep. Essentially, they took a person, made them sleep a lot and then measured performance difference. Performance went up.

Sleep a lot meant sleep enough to recover from sleep dept and then around 8 hours every night.

Re: Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

#17

The argument is made that evolution is based on a light-dark cycle, but is also based on predators who prefer to catch prey asleep. Survival favored those who could awaken and stay awake until a threat has passed or until sustenance was secure. Sleep is often a luxury, and not due to unhealthy life always. And often we are entranced by what we are doing, living our dreams. Sleep is personal and largely subjective, th…

We aren't horses or cows, which do exactly as you say and nearly never sleep.

Our species has evolved for at least 50 million years to sleep on tree tops in nests for the full night within a colony, viz all higher primates and many lesser ones all the way down to Lemurs. The homo genus, where we have evidence, has shown exactly the same patterns of sleep as modern humans. And add to that the last 400,000 after the invention of fire where any modern camper wouldn't have felt out of place inside any group of proto-humans.

Re: Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

#18

The argument is made that evolution is based on a light-dark cycle, but is also based on predators who prefer to catch prey asleep. Survival favored those who could awaken and stay awake until a threat has passed or until sustenance was secure. Sleep is often a luxury, and not due to unhealthy life always. And often we are entranced by what we are doing, living our dreams. Sleep is personal and largely subjective, th…

Sleep is not a luxury; it is an absolute necessity for our mammalian brains to function properly. It is a stretch to call it subjective. While it may be loosely thought of as subjective in the sense that we are capable of staying awake for varying periods of time, it is not something that we are capable of healthily carrying on without. The times of day/night that we need to sleep are pretty consistently and inherently set in our brain, and the amount that is optimal has been extensively studied.

The simple fact is that our brain does a lot of work throughout a day, and, in its standard operation, waste materials build up that, in large enough quantities, cause dysfunction or, when pushed to extremes, damage of the brain. During sleep, the space around our neurons and glial cells expands, and, as I understand it, the postulated function of this is to permit better flow of cerebrospinal fluid through our brains and thus flush them of waste material. I had mammalian sleep explained to me this way by an Anatomy and Physiology teacher - quite simply, sleep is not something that our brains can go without, and a properly functional brain (that is properly producing melatonin) sets and enforces a pretty strict circadian rhythm wherein we are awake during the day and asleep during the night. That is not to say that we are not capable of flexibility in this regard, but pushing our limits in regards to sleep is not a healthy practice.

Natural selection tends towards favoring the individuals in a population that display traits that make them superior survivors and reproducers within the population's environment - while you say that it would tend towards individuals who were capable of maintaining proper function without sleep, I would argue that sleep is a sort of built-in necessity of our complex and highly developed brains and that proper function of our brains can not be maintained without it. I would hypothesize that any individuals that were born with genetic traits that incapacitated or limited their ability to sleep (i.e., genetically induced insomnia) would be at a pretty extreme disadvantage compared to other members in the population. Although there are many nocturnal predators, none have been enough of a threat to our species that it has limited us in any significant or tangible way, and nor have any of them become so well adapted that they regularly threaten or prey upon us while we sleep.

Natural selection does not do much in the way of acting on neutral traits - neutral genetic traits tend to remain relatively consistent in a population as long as the environment remains relatively consistent such that, relative to the environment, those traits do not become particularly advantageous or disadvantageous. While there are exceptions wherein extremes are favored, it seems clear that any disadvantages posed by sleeping at night (in regards both to our modern species and our ancestors) are far outweighed by the advantages of being fully alert and functioning during our regular operational hours.

Re: Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

#19
post #15
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm not going to say everybody needs the same amount of sleep. I am going to go one step further and claim that anyone who says they work 10+ hour days regularly and are still productive is full of shit. I have seen too many of those people either burn up or not actually be able to keep up with me when crunch time comes and a two day caffeine and less legal binge is the only way to do what you know needs to get done…

My impression is that people who spend 10+ hour day in work tend to spend a lot of time socializing, on facebook or otherwise wasting. The problem often is that their needs to socialize and relax are not lower. Without realizing it, they started to use time spend in work to fulfill those needs. It slows down everybody, but looks good to management.

Which is my observation too.

For the sake of Yahoo I hope Marissa Mayer is just a liar because they might be still getting their moneys worth, even if she personally needs to feel like a hero by making claims about self sacrifice etc.

If she does what she says she does in terms of sleep, e.g. 130 hour weeks, then they are paying someone millions of dollars to make decisions in a state so impaired[1] that they would be better off just a random drunk bum on the street and asking him for his vision for Yahoo.

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1739867/

Re: Thomas Edison and the Cult of Sleep Deprivation

#20

One thing that having a kid taught me is that sleep deprivation really hurts my productivity as a programmer. It may be that some people can sleep 5 hours and function just fine, I'm not going to say everybody needs the same amount of sleep. But when it comes to work ridiculous hours I've yet to see someone regularly claiming 100 hours work weeks outperform me over any length of time. If I can get in the zone and ach…

The biggest worry for me is to stay distraction free and focused for 6-8 hours. Anyone claiming to be working 10-12 hours are just killing time.
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