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Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

nytimes.com

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Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#11

Post by eshvk »

outworlder wrote: post #9
protomyth wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense." They have in the sense that I go to a station and fill up then leave in a reasonable amount of time. I don't have to alter my driving habits from the last 50+ years.

Have you used a vehicle powered by natural gas? I have. For safety reasons, in many places you have to get out of the vehicle while it is being refuelled (the cylinder gets really hot!). And that is a change from your 50+ years driving habit. It also takes longer than a comparable gas pump (even if it is measured in single digit minutes). The gas gauge also reads differently (my guess is due to pressure decreases as…

> Have you used a vehicle powered by natural gas? I have. For safety reasons, in many places you have to get out of the vehicle while it is being refuelled (the cylinder gets really hot!). And that is a change from your 50+ years driving habit. It also takes longer than a comparable gas pump (even if it is measured in single digit minutes). The gas gauge also reads differently (my guess is due to pressure decreases as gas is consumed).

In India, people convert their gasoline based cars to use gas cylinders. The replacement is infrequent and doesn't need to happen as often as much as filling up gasoline.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#12

Post by makomk »

revelation wrote: post #7

The RAV4 ev is a pure compliance car. It's only sold in California, it's a 3rd party drivetrain and battery bolted onto the frame for a gas guzzler SUV. So of course it's a terrible product. The only thing it excels at is getting Toyota enough ZEV credits. They recently changed the credit scheme, so now Toyota is switching to that: http://insideevs.com/carb-zev-program-changes-tesla-takes-la...

Interesting - if I'm reading that correctly, Tesla's battery-swap technology substantially boosted the amount of ZEV credits they obtained and could resell by allowing them to claim "fast recharging", despite the facilities to actually swap batteries never actually being available to customers.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#13

Post by eshvk »

dublinben wrote: post #3
hnnewguy wrote: post #2

First we got to hear the ICE proponents spreading FUD about Electric Vehicles, now we'll get to hear Electric Vehicle proponents spreading FUD about fuel cells.

Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense. It's still being turned into electricity anyway, so it's still an electric vehicle. There happens to already be a distribution infrastructure for electricity almost everywhere. The same can't be said for hydrogen. According to the US Department of Energy, there are eleven public hydrogen stations in the US, almost all in Los Angeles. There are more compressed natural gas…

> Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense.

The only reason for me to get an Electric Vehicle is the green factor. If instead of my car polluting the environment, there is an increase in say coal factories, not sure how that helps the environment. So there is a need for fuel cells.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#14

Post by protomyth »

dublinben wrote: post #8
protomyth wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense." They have in the sense that I go to a station and fill up then leave in a reasonable amount of time. I don't have to alter my driving habits from the last 50+ years.

You go to what station? The one a thousand miles away in California? With an EV, you can "fill up" in your own garage every night, or even while parked at work.

Actually, I live in an apartment so no plug there[1] and certainly none at work.

If Toyota goes hydrogen, there will be stations. They can push the tech just as well as Tesla is pushing recharge stations.

1) which actually sucks quite badly in winter since I have nowhere to plug in a head bolt heater.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#15

Post by maxerickson »

dublinben wrote: post #3
hnnewguy wrote: post #2

First we got to hear the ICE proponents spreading FUD about Electric Vehicles, now we'll get to hear Electric Vehicle proponents spreading FUD about fuel cells.

Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense. It's still being turned into electricity anyway, so it's still an electric vehicle. There happens to already be a distribution infrastructure for electricity almost everywhere. The same can't be said for hydrogen. According to the US Department of Energy, there are eleven public hydrogen stations in the US, almost all in Los Angeles. There are more compressed natural gas…

You can even put a small natural gas compressor in your garage (of course it only makes sense if gas is available).

http://www.cngnow.com/vehicles/refueling/Pages/refueling-at-...

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#16

Post by dublinben »

jimmyjazz14 wrote: post #4
dublinben wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense. It's still being turned into electricity anyway, so it's still an electric vehicle. There happens to already be a distribution infrastructure for electricity almost everywhere. The same can't be said for hydrogen. According to the US Department of Energy, there are eleven public hydrogen stations in the US, almost all in Los Angeles. There are more compressed natural gas…

I think the real question to me is about how much energy can be stored in a fuel cell vs the current available batteries.

The upcoming models will have the same ~200-250 mile range as the Tesla Model S.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#18

Post by lotsofmangos »

dublinben wrote: post #3
hnnewguy wrote: post #2

First we got to hear the ICE proponents spreading FUD about Electric Vehicles, now we'll get to hear Electric Vehicle proponents spreading FUD about fuel cells.

Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense. It's still being turned into electricity anyway, so it's still an electric vehicle. There happens to already be a distribution infrastructure for electricity almost everywhere. The same can't be said for hydrogen. According to the US Department of Energy, there are eleven public hydrogen stations in the US, almost all in Los Angeles. There are more compressed natural gas…

You can have on-site production at the gas station though, which you can't currently do with natural gas or petrol, so rolling out pipes may be unnecessary.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#19

Post by protomyth »

outworlder wrote: post #9
protomyth wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense." They have in the sense that I go to a station and fill up then leave in a reasonable amount of time. I don't have to alter my driving habits from the last 50+ years.

Have you used a vehicle powered by natural gas? I have. For safety reasons, in many places you have to get out of the vehicle while it is being refuelled (the cylinder gets really hot!). And that is a change from your 50+ years driving habit. It also takes longer than a comparable gas pump (even if it is measured in single digit minutes). The gas gauge also reads differently (my guess is due to pressure decreases as…

"Have you used a vehicle powered by natural gas?"

I do believe we are talking about hydrogen fuel cells and hydrogen doesn't seem to act as you describe.

"the only thing preventing one from filling up a tank the way they do with gasoline is battery technology"

Yep, and every year it will be solved next year. I am hopeful but not certain.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#20

Post by toomuchtodo »

makomk wrote: post #12
revelation wrote: post #7

The RAV4 ev is a pure compliance car. It's only sold in California, it's a 3rd party drivetrain and battery bolted onto the frame for a gas guzzler SUV. So of course it's a terrible product. The only thing it excels at is getting Toyota enough ZEV credits. They recently changed the credit scheme, so now Toyota is switching to that: http://insideevs.com/carb-zev-program-changes-tesla-takes-la...

Interesting - if I'm reading that correctly, Tesla's battery-swap technology substantially boosted the amount of ZEV credits they obtained and could resell by allowing them to claim "fast recharging", despite the facilities to actually swap batteries never actually being available to customers.

Correct. The vehicle only needs to be able to swap, without the need to deploy the expensive ($~500K/each) battery swap stations.
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