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Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

washingtonpost.com

11–20 of 119 posts

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#11

Because he has congress by the balls.

Impossible... Congress has no balls.

To make this more than mere snark, seriously, committees of the size of Congress are nearly entirely structurally incapable of taking serious stands of this nature. That's not sarcasm, it's a real structural problem with committees, and despite how we often refer to it in humor, it's a fully real thing, not a joke. This is why the US still needs an executive branch, which is structured in such a way that it can take a stand, potentially very quickly.

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#12

I'm frequently not on Snowden's side (and Clapper being wrong doesn't necessarily make Snowden right), but he's completely on point here. Clapper directly lied to Congress under oath. He needs some kind of censure.

Oh, great. I'm very curious. I am honestly very interested to hear what you feel Snowden has done wrong?

I had always assumed that for everyone except those with something to lose (e.g. politicians, bureaucrats) that Snowden 's actions were seen in high regard.

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See "Military's 'sock puppet' software creates fake online identities to spread pro-American propaganda": http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-ope...

I'm personally sick and tired of Snowden opponents being immediately written off as "shills" and "sock-puppets".

It's like the terrorism shield all the politicians stand behind.

Don't agree with me? You're a terrorist.

Don't think Snowden is a hero? You're a sock puppet.

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm personally sick and tired of Snowden opponents being immediately written off as "shills" and "sock-puppets".

It's like the terrorism shield all the politicians stand behind. Don't agree with me? You're a terrorist. Don't think Snowden is a hero? You're a sock puppet.

Accusations of being a sock puppet would hold a lot less water if people on the same side of the argument hadn't actually hired sock puppets.

If you don't want anyone advancing your argument to be labeled a sock puppet, don't hire sock puppets to advance your argument.

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#17
post #3

I'm surprised by the amount of anti-Snowden sentiment in the WaPo comments.

See "Military's 'sock puppet' software creates fake online identities to spread pro-American propaganda": http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-ope...

[deleted]

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#18
post #12

I'm frequently not on Snowden's side (and Clapper being wrong doesn't necessarily make Snowden right), but he's completely on point here. Clapper directly lied to Congress under oath. He needs some kind of censure.

Oh, great. I'm very curious. I am honestly very interested to hear what you feel Snowden has done wrong? I had always assumed that for everyone except those with something to lose (e.g. politicians, bureaucrats) that Snowden 's actions were seen in high regard.

I think perhaps you've been consuming only media that mirrors your own viewpoint. Many people are upset that Snowden "violated his oath," that he took it upon himself to effectively dismantle programs he disagreed with (even if the program was indeed out of line), and that he fled from the consequences of his actions.

If you believe public opinion polling, a majority of Americans don't like what he did and think he should return to face trial: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-most-think-edward-snowden-s...

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#19
There is some good reporting here by the Washington Post about the circumstances of Clapper's testimony to Congress. Readers here who know my comments know that I'm not fully happy with how Snowden chose to disclose information from inside NSA, and particularly not about his travel to China (Hong Kong) and Russia, but I think Snowden raises a fair point here. There is some genuine difference of opinion among Americans about how Clapper's statement to Congress should be characterized (whether "lie" or "erroneous statement") and plenty of us who agree with another comment here posted before mine that two wrongs don't make a right. Every national government in the civilized world needs an intelligence-gathering agency that can operate with some degree of operational secrecy.

I think Congress is unsure about how to proceed on this issue because not all members of Congress are of one mind about what is best for the country in administration of NSA. I categorically reject the assertion that Congress is still moving forward slowly to change NSA oversight because "NSA has Congress by the balls." Nope. One of the most common kinds of comments here on Hacker News about issues like this is a comment that ASSUMES that if government leaders are under pervasive surveillance they are all afraid of blackmail. But I don't believe that, because some government leaders and some political candidates are essentially shameless. Even after they are caught (by old-fashioned journalism, or by a jilted lover or some unrelated criminal investigation) doing something unsavory, they are still willing to run for office, and SOME ARE REELECTED. United States Senator David Vitter was reelected in 2010 even after a scandal involving behavior that I would consider shameful,[1] and the antics of former DC mayor Marion Barry[2] are probably still notorious enough that they don't need further discussion here. In short, I call baloney on the idea that NSA can keep politicians on its leash simply by knowing their secrets. Some politicians have PUBLIC lives full of dirt, and still get elected and influence policy anyway.

The other reason I don't believe this HN hivemind theory of politics is that I by no means assume that everyone in politics lacks personal integrity. Some politicians, I am quite sure, could have all their secrets revealed only to have voters think "Why is that person such a straight-arrow? Why not have some fun once in a while?" The simple fact is that there is value system diversity in the United States electorate, and there is personal conduct probity variance among United States politicians, and there isn't any universal way to unduly influence politicians merely through even the most diligent efforts to discover personal secrets. If politicians think that NSA is going too far (as evidently several politicians from more than one party do think), then they will receive plenty of support from the general public to rein in the surveillance. (Obligatory disclaimer: Yes, I am a lawyer, who as a judicial clerk for my state's Supreme Court used to review case files on attorney misconduct, and, yes, some of my law school classmates are elected officials, including one member of Congress. I am absolutely certain that there are enough politicians ready to mobilize to roll back NSA surveillance programs if they really think the programs are excessive in their scope.)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Vitter#D.C._Madam_scanda...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Barry#1990_arrest_.26_d...

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#20
post #3

I'm surprised by the amount of anti-Snowden sentiment in the WaPo comments.

Consider WaPo's chief readership: people interested in domestic/foreign policy probably living in the DMV area and associated with the federal government.

Among those types, what Snowden did was considered, at BEST, a warranted discussion but highly unprofessional and a breach of trust. (whether you agree with that or not, but that represents their core interests in serving the federal government)

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