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The Gut Microbes of African Hunter-Gatherers

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Re: The Gut Microbes of African Hunter-Gatherers

#11
post #5

Excerpt: In westerners, Bifidumbacterium is a microbe that many nutrition scientists thought was essential to good gut health, but it is almost completely absent in the foragers. Likewise, high counts of the bacteria Treponema have been linked to maladies like Crohn’s disease and irritable bowel syndrome. Neither of these diseases exist among the Hadza, but their guts contain abundant Treponema. As someone who has co…

I don't think it's fair to say that "modern diets are the problem". The availability of modern diets is, after all, largely responsible for modern civilization (which was enabled by agriculture).

But I think it's fair to say that the many benefits of modern diets are accompanied by some serious negative side effects, and that the human microbiome has not yet had enough time to evolve into an optimal state for coping with them. (It probably doesn't help that the "modern diet" isn't at all a stable target to optimize for, either.) Perhaps in another 20,000 years, evolution would naturally shape our microbiome to eliminate things like Crohn's disease and tooth decay.

Re: The Gut Microbes of African Hunter-Gatherers

#12
post #5

Excerpt: In westerners, Bifidumbacterium is a microbe that many nutrition scientists thought was essential to good gut health, but it is almost completely absent in the foragers. Likewise, high counts of the bacteria Treponema have been linked to maladies like Crohn’s disease and irritable bowel syndrome. Neither of these diseases exist among the Hadza, but their guts contain abundant Treponema. As someone who has co…

I'll upvote your set of questions and reply here rather than make my own top-level comment in this interesting thread. 1) The way to test a causal hypothesis is always, at bottom, to do a controlled experiment.[1] So we will tease out the effects of diet on different people by finding experimental volunteers, after institutional review boards approve the experiments, and subjecting the volunteers to controlled diets.…

Thank you.

You said: Lots of different things cause lots of different diseases.

Due to my genetic disorder, I am supposed to be overrun with disease and simply accept dying from it. I have been steadily getting well for the last thirteen years, which is very frequently met with incredibly dismissive feedback. (My favorite being: Thirteen years of steady forward progress is not evidence I know anything, it is mere wild coincidence. Stranger things have happened.)

My genetic disorder is known to cause the tissues to be too acid. There are multiple books about how the typical American diet is too acid. If you get certain kinds of sudden acidosis (this comes to mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diabetic_Ketoacidosis), they will promptly hospitalize you because it can be deadly within 72 hours. Yet, it is not standard practice to treat or even test for acidosis with my condition. Ant-acids are only prescribed for gut issues like GERD and acid reflux which can occur with my condition. Anecdotally, other people with CF report that they have fewer lung issues when on acid blockers and similar for their gut issues.

Altering my diet to make my body less acid has been one of the cornerstones of getting myself well. I have seen articles linking anti-biotic resistance and biofilms to high acidity and seen research that biofilms can be broken up and anti-biotic resistance reversed if acidity is addressed. Yet, again, this remains not a standard treatment for my condition, which kills you by fostering infections and, ultimately, antibiotic resistance in those infections.

My life expectancy is not supposed to be that high for a modern Westerner. It is supposed to be roughly mid-thirties (granted, my form of CF has an undetermined life expectancy, yet I did nearly die in my mid thirties).

Anyway, I just know of lots of different bits of information linking inflammation, acidity, infection and many of the issues typical of my disorder. So a) I would really like to see more biochemical data (like ph balance of sample tissues) in studies of this sort and b) I am ...flummoxed as to why people seem to think we do not have enough data to say, yea, verily, acidity is a primary issue we should treat for to control symptoms of various conditions. (Because there are a lot of conditions associated with my genetic disorder but not unique to it, such as early onset osteoporosis, diabetes, arthritis and on and on.)

Re: The Gut Microbes of African Hunter-Gatherers

#13
This is not surprising to me at all. Pathogenic bacteria linked to diseases such as Crohn's and IBS are only pathogenic if we get them later in life. When we get these bacteria in childhood, before the age of 7, they grow symbiotically with us and help ward off disease. Check out the book An Epidemic of Absence by Moises Valesquez-Manoff [1] if you guys want to learn more about this stuff. It's a fascinating account of a man who experiments with altering his gut biome to overcome Alopecia areata (total hair loss). The book is loaded with science and references a lot of other studies dealing with the gut biome.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/Epidemic-Absence-Understanding-Allergi...

Re: The Gut Microbes of African Hunter-Gatherers

#14
post #8
post #5

Excerpt: In westerners, Bifidumbacterium is a microbe that many nutrition scientists thought was essential to good gut health, but it is almost completely absent in the foragers. Likewise, high counts of the bacteria Treponema have been linked to maladies like Crohn’s disease and irritable bowel syndrome. Neither of these diseases exist among the Hadza, but their guts contain abundant Treponema. As someone who has co…

2) A "disease" really means just that: "dis"/not (at) "ease". It's a generic catch-all for something that makes you not at ease. It can have many causes, from microbial or viral sources (eg common cold), to inorganic toxins (eg lead poisoning), to genetic abnormalities (eg psoriasis), malnutrution and bad nutrition (eg fatty arteries), even social problems are sometimes considered a disease (eg gambling addiction). W…

No, I am not looking for confirmation bias. I am wondering about something complex that we don't seem to have good language for -- or perhaps that I don't personally have good language for.

I have spent a lot of years reversing symptoms of my genetic disorder as well as reversing issues in my special needs sons. Altering my diet is a very big part of that. Humans have been around a long time. Some of the issues my sons and I have are relatively "new." I spend a lot of time wondering how much that is a product of "new" environments rather than "new" biological issues within humans themselves, if that makes any sense.

My dad was old enough to be my grandfather. He grew up on a farm, without the constant noise of modern life. When I lived with my parents during my divorce, I realized my oldest son had many things in common with my father. I had never before realized. The sensitivity to noise that is viewed as pathological and worthy of labeling as ASD or as having sensory issues is something both my parents had. They were just old, grew up in a different era, and expected the house to be kept quiet. No on acted like their preferences were a "special need" requiring a label...etc.

Sorry if that is not very clear. I wonder a lot at how much our modern "ills" are really a product of our modern lives -- of environments that did not exist until recently but which we view as something "normal" that "everyone" should be capable of coping with. It isn't looking for confirmation bias. It is wondering how much bias exists in some of the assumptions we make in how we frame certain kinds of problems.

Re: The Gut Microbes of African Hunter-Gatherers

#15
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be interesting - but, as the article says, the environment where you're living is also important.

That's what they say, but I'm sceptical this is really the case. What do bacteria behind strong barriers (stomach acid, small intestine) care about external factors?

I will add that heat, humidity, sea level, air pressure and on and on likely impact your internal biology more than you think.

Anecdotally, I moved back to Southern California as soon as I was able because my health is better in this climate than in other places I have lived. Also anecdotally: People who get stationed in Antartica have really bizarre, unexplained things happen to them sometimes, like their fingernails get a lot thicker and weird stuff like that. As I understand it, it is not just the cold. It is also anomalous in terms of height above sea level and other qualities. I don't know the details. It was just a snippet that stayed with me from an interview of a medical professional who had been stationed there and remarked on how this weird stuff happens and they don't even really have studies or any idea where to start hypothesizing.

Re: The Gut Microbes of African Hunter-Gatherers

#16
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll upvote your set of questions and reply here rather than make my own top-level comment in this interesting thread. 1) The way to test a causal hypothesis is always, at bottom, to do a controlled experiment.[1] So we will tease out the effects of diet on different people by finding experimental volunteers, after institutional review boards approve the experiments, and subjecting the volunteers to controlled diets.…

Thank you. You said: Lots of different things cause lots of different diseases. Due to my genetic disorder, I am supposed to be overrun with disease and simply accept dying from it. I have been steadily getting well for the last thirteen years, which is very frequently met with incredibly dismissive feedback. (My favorite being: Thirteen years of steady forward progress is not evidence I know anything, it is mere wil…

I'm curious, what tests do you use to check how acidic your tissues are? How have you changed your diet, and what impact did it have on your body's acidity?

Re: The Gut Microbes of African Hunter-Gatherers

#17
post #16
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. You said: Lots of different things cause lots of different diseases. Due to my genetic disorder, I am supposed to be overrun with disease and simply accept dying from it. I have been steadily getting well for the last thirteen years, which is very frequently met with incredibly dismissive feedback. (My favorite being: Thirteen years of steady forward progress is not evidence I know anything, it is mere wil…

I'm curious, what tests do you use to check how acidic your tissues are? How have you changed your diet, and what impact did it have on your body's acidity?

I kind of hate answering questions like this because a) No, I don't have a one paragraph answer (I had a website at one time to try to catalog what I have done and I moved it twice, because of the very ugly attacks on me -- it still exists but not much of it is published online) and b) the answers generally just fuel more ugly attacks.

For your first one: I didn't "test" anything. I followed progress symptomatically.

For your second one: I read up on alkaline foods and skewed my diet somewhat towards those (lettuce, white corn, and watermelon were a big part of my diet for a long time). I also took a lot of supplements ($300/month for years), some of which were alkaline minerals that people like me are typically deficient in (such as calcium and magnesium). I also found that excluding pro-inflammatory oils and certain other pro-inflammatory foods (like peanuts) made a big, big difference.

That's it in a nutshell, but, again, this is 13 years of work I am trying to summarize for you. So a nutshell doesn't really do it justice.

Edit: Sorry, I missed your third question: How it impacted my acidity. I no longer have acid reflux and similar. That's the best I can say about that specific question without being dismissed as a whack job. (I also have a lot less of other issues, but those issues are not things I can "prove" are related to reduced acidity.)

Re: The Gut Microbes of African Hunter-Gatherers

#18
post #5

Excerpt: In westerners, Bifidumbacterium is a microbe that many nutrition scientists thought was essential to good gut health, but it is almost completely absent in the foragers. Likewise, high counts of the bacteria Treponema have been linked to maladies like Crohn’s disease and irritable bowel syndrome. Neither of these diseases exist among the Hadza, but their guts contain abundant Treponema. As someone who has co…

2) What actually causes "disease"? This implies to me that germs per se are not really the explanation.

IBS (and Crohn's, which is really just a type of IBD), is an immune disorder characterized by chronic, uncontrolled inflammation. All the disease's symptoms stem from this state, so the specific germs involved may or may not be all that important, the body's reaction to them is. When you get down to it, many disease states are just a consequence of regulation of inflammation failing at a critical location.

Re: The Gut Microbes of African Hunter-Gatherers

#19
post #14
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2) A "disease" really means just that: "dis"/not (at) "ease". It's a generic catch-all for something that makes you not at ease. It can have many causes, from microbial or viral sources (eg common cold), to inorganic toxins (eg lead poisoning), to genetic abnormalities (eg psoriasis), malnutrution and bad nutrition (eg fatty arteries), even social problems are sometimes considered a disease (eg gambling addiction). W…

No, I am not looking for confirmation bias. I am wondering about something complex that we don't seem to have good language for -- or perhaps that I don't personally have good language for. I have spent a lot of years reversing symptoms of my genetic disorder as well as reversing issues in my special needs sons. Altering my diet is a very big part of that. Humans have been around a long time. Some of the issues my so…

I wonder a lot at how much our modern "ills" are really a product of our modern lives

This is why I caution you against confirmation bias. The modern life also allows plenty of people who weren't previously viable to achieve adulthood. I'm not talking about Spartan exposure of sick infants (which is an outlier), but that people with sensitive constitutions were more easily taken young by disease in the first place. The high infant mortality of the past is a significant example.

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