Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#11

Post by mschuster91 » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 12:04 AM UTC

jcdavis wrote: post #5

mitchellh wrote: post #3

The cool things: Tesla is running Linux (!) and standard technologies/protocols such as SSH, NFS, X11, HTTP, etc. to do things in the car. That is cool, and probably highly efficient since developer test labs can probably just be basic Ubuntu-like virtual machines. The sketchy things: Jailbreaking a car seems pretty dangerous, especially since as far as I'm aware, the electronic systems control things including the b…

No way is the drive control software is running linux, its almost certainly running on its own embedded system.

...which you can hack, as all car systems are connected by the CAN bus, and people already have exploited buffer overflows in car radios, in turn giving access to the CAN bus, and unlocking the vehicle.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#12

Post by mschuster91 » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 12:05 AM UTC

Mister_Snuggles wrote: post #9

jcdavis wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way is the drive control software is running linux, its almost certainly running on its own embedded system.

You are correct. According to the article, the car's network consists of three devices - the centre console, the dashboard, and one unknown device. There's no way that the whole car has only three computers. My guess is that this ethernet network is only for the user interface. I'd also guess that the unknown device serves as a gateway (and, hopefully, a firewall) between the critical systems of the car and the car's…

Firewall? The CAN bus interfacing with the core vehicle components assumes no access controls or anything. Any device connected to it is inherently trustable, no questions asked.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#13

Post by dm2 » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 12:09 AM UTC

Can Tesla detect if settings or the files for one of their cars are modified?

I would like an option to contact home base to verify that all files and configurations in my car are exactly like their suppose to be, else either disable the car or download the correct software.

Maybe a way to enable a developer mode which can only be used on a non-public road.

I just can't imagine modifying an electric vehicles computers and settings for anything useful. Please offer some suggestions if you can.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#14

Post by deevus » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 12:16 AM UTC

dm2 wrote: post #13

Can Tesla detect if settings or the files for one of their cars are modified? I would like an option to contact home base to verify that all files and configurations in my car are exactly like their suppose to be, else either disable the car or download the correct software. Maybe a way to enable a developer mode which can only be used on a non-public road. I just can't imagine modifying an electric vehicles computer…

Nice. A bit like Steam's verify game cache.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#15

Post by eik3_de » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 12:20 AM UTC

jcdavis wrote: post #5

mitchellh wrote: post #3

The cool things: Tesla is running Linux (!) and standard technologies/protocols such as SSH, NFS, X11, HTTP, etc. to do things in the car. That is cool, and probably highly efficient since developer test labs can probably just be basic Ubuntu-like virtual machines. The sketchy things: Jailbreaking a car seems pretty dangerous, especially since as far as I'm aware, the electronic systems control things including the b…

No way is the drive control software is running linux, its almost certainly running on its own embedded system.

likely using a real time os like qnx/vxworks for the more critical stuff.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#16

Post by fleitz » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 12:25 AM UTC

mitchellh wrote: post #3

The cool things: Tesla is running Linux (!) and standard technologies/protocols such as SSH, NFS, X11, HTTP, etc. to do things in the car. That is cool, and probably highly efficient since developer test labs can probably just be basic Ubuntu-like virtual machines. The sketchy things: Jailbreaking a car seems pretty dangerous, especially since as far as I'm aware, the electronic systems control things including the b…

Now... imagine you have a low tech car facing an attacker armed with a pair of side cutters.

First, locate the hood, second, use the release to pop it. Locate the master cylinder, and the hose running to the engine, cut it. Now the brakes don't work very well. Locate the hose not running to the engine, cut that, now the brakes don't work at all.

Imagine that any person strong enough to operate side cutters can hack into your car and disable the brakes.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#17

Post by eik3_de » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 12:29 AM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #8

A quick google for the source code only revealed http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/archive/index.php/t-10748.htm... - apparently Tesla has never released the source code of the "modified Ubuntu" they're using. Whoops. Also, looks like Tesla has got international deals with mobile carriers for data flatrates. I'm looking forward to see the first guy stream youtube or youp*rn on the dashboard :D

If they don't modify gpl code but just configure existing software and add their own packages, do they still have to pub everything?

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#18

Post by chris_mahan » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 12:30 AM UTC

afhsfsfdsss88 wrote: post #6

As a hacker...Cool! As a driver who will have to occupy space around people playing with this while driving...F#&*!

Agreed. There should be a large warning on the console: "Warning to passengers: The Vehicle Systems have been Compromised. Please do not ride in this vehicle. A Service tow truck has been dispatched."

Also, the car should not move.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#19

Post by eridius » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 12:34 AM UTC

driverdan wrote: post #4

“Tesla USA engineers have seen a tentative of hacking on my car.”, “can be related to industrial espionage and advised me to stop investigation, to not void the warranty”. So long as you don't cause any damage they can't void your warranty in the US thanks to the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act.

Poking around an unknown device's network and sending arbitrary commands to see how it responds could certainly very well damage something.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#20

Post by dalke » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 12:35 AM UTC

mitchellh wrote: post #3

The cool things: Tesla is running Linux (!) and standard technologies/protocols such as SSH, NFS, X11, HTTP, etc. to do things in the car. That is cool, and probably highly efficient since developer test labs can probably just be basic Ubuntu-like virtual machines. The sketchy things: Jailbreaking a car seems pretty dangerous, especially since as far as I'm aware, the electronic systems control things including the b…

You started with jailbreaking then transitioned to malicious software update - aren't those two different things? While it's possible that bad software would cause dangerous problems with the car, it's also possible that a bad repair job or bad part will as well. Yet we allow unlicensed mechanics, like the owner of the car, to do things like replace the brakes.

While you may not be comfortable jailbreaking your own car, you might also not be comfortable replacing your own brakes? Do you think my replacing the brakes of my own car would also be sketchy? I am a better programmer than I am a car mechanic. Also, after-market mods which reprogram the engine have been around for a while, so it's not like people do things like this already.