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Why I'm Boycotting Mozilla Products

jeffknupp.com

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Re: Why I'm Boycotting Mozilla Products

#11

Post by purringmeow »

natch wrote: post #10
purringmeow wrote: post #5

Has B.Eich done anything do expose his views in the workplace? I don't think so. It's unfair to push your political/societal ideas on others in the company and demand they conform to them. I am saying that as a note to some employees demanding B.Eich to resign, because of the donation he made. It's getting a bit ridiculous how some people are getting publicly bashed, because of their views. There is clear separation…

My personal views outside of work have little bearing on my ability to do my job. But then, I'm not a CEO. CEOs have to be leaders, and their personal views, separate or not, are very relevant to their ability to lead.

What does his stance on gay marriage tell you about his ability to lead? It tells me exactly nothing. Has he harrased or fired an employee for being gay? I really doubt that.

Re: Why I'm Boycotting Mozilla Products

#12

Post by dalke »

purringmeow wrote: post #5

Has B.Eich done anything do expose his views in the workplace? I don't think so. It's unfair to push your political/societal ideas on others in the company and demand they conform to them. I am saying that as a note to some employees demanding B.Eich to resign, because of the donation he made. It's getting a bit ridiculous how some people are getting publicly bashed, because of their views. There is clear separation…

When is it fair "to push your political/societal ideas on others in the company and demand they conform to them"?

When is it okay to publicly bash people because of their public actions? (Note that I changed "views" to "public actions", since as I understand it the main objection is to a specific public action; donating money to a political cause.)

The answer certainly isn't "never". I can think of no clear boundary for when it is/isn't fair or okay. At the very least, I don't think there's always a clear separation between a person and a company's vision. One need only consider the professed vision of "Susan G. Komen for the Cure" vs. the public reactions to the specific views and actions of some of its board. Or going back a few years, consider the 2004 attempted "takeover" of the Sierra Club board by those with a stronger immigration-reduction viewpoint.

Personally, I think it's completely fair to demand that others conform with your political/societal ideas. Do you think Stallman would have gotten anywhere with free software if he followed your recommendation?

OTOH, I think that it's completely unrealistic to believe that others will always conform with your ideas.

Re: Why I'm Boycotting Mozilla Products

#14

Post by phpnode »

jknupp wrote: post #6
phpnode wrote: post #4

I notice that your site uses JavaScript. Did you know that Brendan Eich invented JavaScript? For consistency, you should not only remove JS from your site but also boycott every other site that uses it, including this one.

I agree. I'm not being consistent in my views. I'm going to continue to use JavaScript, but I don't the Eich should be running Mozilla. Humans are complicated.

Regardless of the merits of taking a public stand against this kind of thing, you, and the other people speaking out against Eich are making a Fundamental Attribution Error [0].

The fact that Eich donated in support of prop 8 does not necessarily make him a homophobe. The only thing we see is the donation and none of the context around what made him decide to do it. He has denied being a homophobe and there have been no reports of any homophobic behaviour. The only thing we actually know is that he made a donation to a political cause that the majority of the voting public also agreed with. Is it fair to say that every single one of the 52%[1] of voters in support of prop 8 are homophobes? Plainly the answer is no.

[0]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)...

Re: Why I'm Boycotting Mozilla Products

#15

Post by dalke »

natch wrote: post #9
Pacabel wrote: post #7

One thing I've noticed a lot of with many of the arguments regarding this particular incident is blatant contradiction and hypocrisy. While these aren't unusual, they're particularly bad in this case. This article, for instance, states the following: "Indeed, any right withheld from any group of people must be rallied against." Yet the author makes that very claim in an article that basically suggests that people sho…

People are entitled to their views. But some views are not conducive to good leadership.

And expressing views may have social consequences. There is no general right which requires others to ignore or disregard speech they don't like.

(There are limited rights, like workplace laws protecting people who express views about unsafe working conditions or racial discrimination in the workplace from retaliatory action by their employers. This should not be confused with a general right that applies to everyone and all speech.)

Re: Why I'm Boycotting Mozilla Products

#17

Post by booop »

natch wrote: post #10
purringmeow wrote: post #5

Has B.Eich done anything do expose his views in the workplace? I don't think so. It's unfair to push your political/societal ideas on others in the company and demand they conform to them. I am saying that as a note to some employees demanding B.Eich to resign, because of the donation he made. It's getting a bit ridiculous how some people are getting publicly bashed, because of their views. There is clear separation…

My personal views outside of work have little bearing on my ability to do my job. But then, I'm not a CEO. CEOs have to be leaders, and their personal views, separate or not, are very relevant to their ability to lead.

> CEOs have to be leaders, and their personal views, separate or not, are very relevant to their ability to lead.

Utter nonsense. CEOs can have personal and professional lives, just like anyone else. Eich may have opposed gay marriage but this doesn't seem to have affected any policy at Mozilla. Those going crazy over this are only insecure.

Re: Why I'm Boycotting Mozilla Products

#18

Post by dkuntz2 »

burntroots wrote: post #16
burntroots wrote: post #13

So what's happening here is a man is fighting intolerance with more intolerance. That seems productive.

To the person who downvoted me, how am I wrong?

Would you argue that the Montgomery Bus Boycott was just fighting intolerance with intolerance? Is Richard Stallman intolerant because he boycotts the Coca-Cola company?

Boycotting isn't fighting intolerance with intolerance, it's just an instance of someone abstaining from something.

Re: Why I'm Boycotting Mozilla Products

#19

Post by jknupp »

phpnode wrote: post #14
jknupp wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I'm not being consistent in my views. I'm going to continue to use JavaScript, but I don't the Eich should be running Mozilla. Humans are complicated.

Regardless of the merits of taking a public stand against this kind of thing, you, and the other people speaking out against Eich are making a Fundamental Attribution Error [0]. The fact that Eich donated in support of prop 8 does not necessarily make him a homophobe. The only thing we see is the donation and none of the context around what made him decide to do it. He has denied being a homophobe and there have been…

I never accused him of being a homophobe, I simply stated all that I can glean from the facts: he doesn't believe homosexuals should be allowed to marry.

Re: Why I'm Boycotting Mozilla Products

#20

Post by coldtea »

"Why I'm Boycotting Mozilla Products"

Because you need to invent BS crusades and then inform anyone about them in order to get attention?

Just a guess, it could just be because you cannot toleate someone holding an opinion counter to yours in an issue, and have to retaliate on him not by democratic procedures or exchange of ideas, but by causing him to lose his job.

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