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Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

thenewatlantis.com

11–20 of 68 posts

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#11

Are minds are not like computers because we humans have 'emotions.' Emotions affects the mind's performance and what memories are activated.

You're assuming emotions are some kind of magic that happens outside of your neurons and synapses. They don't. Provided we can accurately simulate neurons, synapses and how they interact in an accurate enough way such machines could have emotions. The challenge is obviously in achieving the above.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#12
We don't have the computer power to simulate a brain quark-for-quark yet; when we can it'll be interesting to see what happens. Until that happens, it's all moot anyway as it's a religious argument. For me it's clear that brains are computers, just not the ones we are using right now. This has been obvious since the first time I touched a computer 30 years ago and I didn't grasp why we still needed humans for anything at that time and that is still true kind of today. The fight is strong against weak AI and I firmly am convinced strong will happen; there aren't too many good arguments against it. Most arguments now are lack of comprehension or religion (some form of saying there is more than just this but failing to explain what/how). And this article isn't even an argument.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#13

Mind is not a computer. It's actually two computers, maybe three. They co-evolved, each with different goals, and they work together as a team, with all the competition and cooperation that it entails.

That, as the definition of computer goes now, is still a computer. 1-2-1000 doesn't matter.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#14
The fundamental difference between minds and computers, which many people don't understand, is that computers are modelling things. They are calculating outcomes from preconditions. Minds on the other hand, while they might also be doing that, are experiencing things. They feel, see and hear. You might make the argument that we don't know whether a computer is doing that as well, because it can't tell us - but then I could just as well propose that minds are like popcorn.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#15
post #8

It feels like this article sets up something of a straw man. The analogy that a mind is like a computer is just that, an analogy . It's used to present the high-level structure of the brain in a accessible, understandable way, not as a logical argument. This analogy is not the justification for why people believe that "the mind can be replicated on a computer". And yet the article tries to disprove the latter, deep a…

To me the most convincing discussions of artificial or engineered minds start with:

"human minds exist"

Therefore, whatever it is that minds do is possible.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#17
Statistical analysis approach can be a good educated guess at most. But if we keep observing human brain to get input/ouput dataset, we can develop a field that much like Physics, where the theory comes from experiments and even those do not must need future experimental proof to be considered valid. Yes, not all these theory based on expriments is true (that is why I say it is a good educated guess) because maybe our observed set is just a subset of all test cases we need. But using this approach like Physics we can keep pushing the limit of (AI) theory and expriements forward.

As I mentioned another half (theory first, then experimental validation) of this approach is another Einstein came along and made amazing thoeries once and for all. Then the expriments proves it is true to our best knowledge up to date. The the loop starts again.

I think the first cases may be the most prevalent because insights are not very easy to come by without seeing experimental result first. If we can make a organized way to keep working on the first half, the second half might come by some time. Just some random thoughts, primarily made to inspire some followup conversations amongst us.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#18
post #11

Are minds are not like computers because we humans have 'emotions.' Emotions affects the mind's performance and what memories are activated.

You're assuming emotions are some kind of magic that happens outside of your neurons and synapses. They don't. Provided we can accurately simulate neurons, synapses and how they interact in an accurate enough way such machines could have emotions. The challenge is obviously in achieving the above.

Quoting Candace Pert, author of 'Molecules of Emotions':

"For decades, most people thought of the brain and its extension the central nervous system as an electrical communication system . . . resembling a telephone system with trillions of miles of intricately crisscrossing wires." But new research techniques for studying peptides and receptors show that only 2 percent of neuronal communications are electrical, across a synapse. In fact, she writes, "the brain is a bag of hormones." And those hormones affect not only the brain, but every aspect of body and mind; many memories are stored throughout the body, as changes in the structure of receptors at the cellular level. "The body," Pert concludes, "is the unconscious mind!"

From: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/review-of-molecules-of...

Emotions seem to occur outside the brain.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#19
Is brain a machine? If you don't believe in souls and that kind of thing - then the brain is material and thus a machine for me.

Can you replicate the way brain works in another machine? If it is a machine than most probably yes.

Can you replicate the way brain works in a digital computer? It is possible that there are physical processes going on in the brain that cannot be feasibly approximated by digital algorithms (i.e. it is possible that there are analog machines that are for some problems faster than any digital computer can be). There used to be analogue computers and it is entirely possible that some day they again will be useful.

Can you build a brain without knowing how it works? Well we know how to build a brain without knowing how it works - you need a woman and a man and ...

What is the definition of artificial then?

Can you control AI if you don't know how exactly it works? Probably not - just like we cannot really control humans, but we have pretty good ways of influencing them.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#20

We have gone leaps and bounds since we started building an "artificial brain". Look at where deep learning is leading to. Ofcourse, we can't mimic the brain in all its majesty anytime soon but short of that, there's so much we can achieve.

i don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, but the argument is that a computer is a different thing to a mind. So, even if a really powerful computer could convincingly mimic a mind or otherwise achieve a similar result it would still be a different thing.

For me a good way of thinking about this is the discovery of genetic heredity. Heredity was known for a long time before DNA was known. Eventually evolution became understood too. But, before DNA was discovered we didn't know what a trait "looked like" in much the same way as we don't know what a thought or memory "looks like."

Without that knowledge it's hard to know if a computer is mimicking a mind or being a mind.

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