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Mistakes we've made

hackerschool.com

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Re: Mistakes we've made

#11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked book ( Unlocking the Clubhouse [1]) is based off a multi-year study of Carnegie Mellon CS majors. They found it was common for the male CS majors to describe themselves as "in love" with programming but much less common for female CS majors to do so. (That's obviously greatly simplified, but that's the gist of it.) [1] http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/unlocking-clubhouse

That doesn't imply that "love" is a gendered word, it implies that males use the word more.

I wouldn't call the word itself gendered. The problem is it appeals disproportionately to men (for a variety of cultural reasons described in the study).

It's not in Hacker School's interest to skew their appeal toward certain groups of people for no reason.

Re: Mistakes we've made

#12
post #2

presents strong evidence that this language is gendered. We've since stopped saying that people must "love" programming Could someone expand on this point and explain how the "love programming" phrasing is gendered?

it's not, unless you're speaking spanish or any language that has genders for nouns.

verbs can't have genders, and frankly i'm insulted that someone would take the verb "love" and make it either feminine or masculine. "love" is human and genderless. is "eat" gendered because men typically eat more than women? no, because that would be ridiculous. no gender can lay claim to any verb unless it is created specifically for that gender, and even then i can't really think of any example (maybe "impregnate"? but even that is based on sex and not gender and has other meanings besides human procreation).

Re: Mistakes we've made

#13
post #2

presents strong evidence that this language is gendered. We've since stopped saying that people must "love" programming Could someone expand on this point and explain how the "love programming" phrasing is gendered?

it's not, unless you're speaking spanish or any language that has genders for nouns. verbs can't have genders, and frankly i'm insulted that someone would take the verb "love" and make it either feminine or masculine. "love" is human and genderless. is "eat" gendered because men typically eat more than women? no, because that would be ridiculous. no gender can lay claim to any verb unless it is created specifically f…

The original post is using "gendered" in a non-linguistic sense (with a meaning something like '[disproportionately] associated with a particular gender'). There are definitely adjectives and nouns that have such a strong gender connotation that they're used almost exclusively to refer to people of one gender, even though gender isn't necessarily part of their definition. (Common examples in English are "feisty", "perky", "bitchy", and "voluptuous", although there are others.) It seems quite possible to imagine verbs entering this category, so that they'd be used in practice almost exclusively with subjects of one gender, though I don't know of an example in English.

I think the original post's use of "gendered" is actually weaker than this phenomenon because it says that "love (one's activity or profession)" is used much more by men than by women, not necessarily that it's acquired a connotation for listeners that the subject is male. (So the Hacker School administrators' concern is that women tend not to describe themselves as "loving programming", not that a listener hearing that "X loves programming" will assume that X is a man.) I guess I just mean to suggest that it's quite possible to imagine a verb also acquiring such a connotation for listeners, even if this one hasn't in this case.

Getting back to the linguistic question of whether verbs can have gender, I think that duco in the sense of 'take (a wife)' in Latin can only be applied to a man's act of marrying a woman, and not to a woman's act of marrying a man, but that might be more a matter of ancient Roman legal understanding of marriage and so could be closer to your example of "impregnate" than to the original post's sense, which is meant to refer more to connotations than to grammatical possibility or impossibility.

There actually are languages that have genders for verbs, where gender is a feature for which verbs are inflected and where verbs must agree with their subject in gender as well as, say, number. For instance, in Hebrew if a male subject loves something, the verb form is אוֹהֵב ohev, whereas when a female subject loves something, the verb form is אוֹהֵבֵת ohevet. Arabic also has gender-marked verb forms that agree with the grammatical gender of the subject. This has no connection to the way the original post uses the term, though!

Re: Mistakes we've made

#14
post #2

presents strong evidence that this language is gendered. We've since stopped saying that people must "love" programming Could someone expand on this point and explain how the "love programming" phrasing is gendered?

To explain very quickly and generally - a lot of men in CS (and probably in general) tend towards overconfidence, where women with the same skills will be underconfident in themselves. When you're surrounded by people who are ultra confident and professing their love for the subject matter, it's easy to feel that you don't love the topic as much as the people around you, and that you must not be as into it as everyone else. Probably best to read the referenced materials if you need to see these things quantified, and there's likely also other aspects that I'm missing, but that's the gist of it.

Re: Mistakes we've made

#15
post #2

presents strong evidence that this language is gendered. We've since stopped saying that people must "love" programming Could someone expand on this point and explain how the "love programming" phrasing is gendered?

The linked book ( Unlocking the Clubhouse [1]) is based off a multi-year study of Carnegie Mellon CS majors. They found it was common for the male CS majors to describe themselves as "in love" with programming but much less common for female CS majors to do so. (That's obviously greatly simplified, but that's the gist of it.) [1] http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/unlocking-clubhouse

It would be even better if this was about more than gender. I am not one of the gender inequity deniers in this industry and I don't see anything wrong with valuing a better gender balance in the industry, in fact I think it's a good thing.

But love is such a loaded, unclear term. Why is it not good enough for someone to enjoy programming and have an intellectual curiosity about programming? To me that sounds like perfectly reasonable criteria to identify people who are a good fit for 3 months focused on programming. But you're basically saying that if it weren't for this gender inequity it would be totally reasonable to continue searching for a love of programming. It's hard enough for me to say I love my family and yet it was thought of as a good requirement to expect people to love programming to be qualified to participate in 3 months of programming in a community environment?

Re: Mistakes we've made

#16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't imply that "love" is a gendered word, it implies that males use the word more.

It suggests (but certainly does not, as described, certainly establish) that the associating the term with a particular kind of affection for a vocation may be tied to gender, and therefore that suggesting that identifying with the use of that term in that relation as a qualification for a program like Hacker School may be an unintentional gender filter. Interestingly, I'd never thought about that previously but as s…

I am not surprised at all a study found that less women say they "love" programming. In my career I have worked with many women, and none of them would I consider less than well-rounded as a person. But I have met many, many males who are heavily skewed toward the "hacking is life" mindset. Nevertheless, the two best programmers I have ever known are women, and they did not identify as "hackers."

Hacking is a culture, not a job description, and in my experience, singleminded dedication to programming is not an indicator of ability. So I guess the real problem with "Hacker School" is that it's a programming school not a hacker school. A hacker (programming) school could never say anything like "you don't have to love programming" because being a hacker is pretty much defined by loving it.

Re: Mistakes we've made

#17
post #2

presents strong evidence that this language is gendered. We've since stopped saying that people must "love" programming Could someone expand on this point and explain how the "love programming" phrasing is gendered?

The linked book ( Unlocking the Clubhouse [1]) is based off a multi-year study of Carnegie Mellon CS majors. They found it was common for the male CS majors to describe themselves as "in love" with programming but much less common for female CS majors to do so. (That's obviously greatly simplified, but that's the gist of it.) [1] http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/unlocking-clubhouse

I know women, programmers, who are in love with programming. Hell they're more in love with programming even maybe than I am. We have wonderful arguments about SOLID, and CQRS and event-sourcing and queues, and pipes, and job servers.

Loving your job isn't exclusive to men.

Anti-sexism is reaching a different type of extreme, where certainly we should be hiring women who don't love their job, just so we're not sexist?

I know where to draw the line. And I'm drawing it before that.

Re: Mistakes we've made

#18
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It suggests (but certainly does not, as described, certainly establish) that the associating the term with a particular kind of affection for a vocation may be tied to gender, and therefore that suggesting that identifying with the use of that term in that relation as a qualification for a program like Hacker School may be an unintentional gender filter. Interestingly, I'd never thought about that previously but as s…

I am not surprised at all a study found that less women say they "love" programming. In my career I have worked with many women, and none of them would I consider less than well-rounded as a person. But I have met many, many males who are heavily skewed toward the "hacking is life" mindset. Nevertheless, the two best programmers I have ever known are women, and they did not identify as "hackers." Hacking is a culture…

You don't get to define what the word "hacker" means, though.

Re: Mistakes we've made

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked book ( Unlocking the Clubhouse [1]) is based off a multi-year study of Carnegie Mellon CS majors. They found it was common for the male CS majors to describe themselves as "in love" with programming but much less common for female CS majors to do so. (That's obviously greatly simplified, but that's the gist of it.) [1] http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/unlocking-clubhouse

That doesn't imply that "love" is a gendered word, it implies that males use the word more.

Following up on something I said further down in this thread, I think the OP meant to use "gendered" in a gender studies sense and not in a linguistic sense. I don't fully understand the meaning of "gendered" in the gender studies sense, but I think the OP meant something like "systematically associated with gender in some way".

I think the intended meaning is basically that there are cultural differences around whether people tend to express their enthusiasm for programming as "love" or not, and so Hacker School now doubts this term is the best indicator of whether a prospective participant has the kind of enthusiasm they're looking for.

It's true that "gendered word" has a totally separate meaning in linguistics, where it refers to the phenomenon where a noun attracts or requires agreement according to a class that the noun is in. In many languages these words need not refer to animate beings' gender at all, and in some languages the noun classes are totally abstract and unrelated to masculinity or femininity, although there's some disagreement about this terminology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noun_classes#Noun_classes_vers...

Anyway, I suggest reading the OP as saying "cultural differences, often along gender lines, in whether people commonly describe their relationship with programming as love".

Re: Mistakes we've made

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked book ( Unlocking the Clubhouse [1]) is based off a multi-year study of Carnegie Mellon CS majors. They found it was common for the male CS majors to describe themselves as "in love" with programming but much less common for female CS majors to do so. (That's obviously greatly simplified, but that's the gist of it.) [1] http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/unlocking-clubhouse

It would be even better if this was about more than gender. I am not one of the gender inequity deniers in this industry and I don't see anything wrong with valuing a better gender balance in the industry, in fact I think it's a good thing. But love is such a loaded, unclear term. Why is it not good enough for someone to enjoy programming and have an intellectual curiosity about programming? To me that sounds like pe…

As the post mentions, we stopped using the word "love" for both reasons -- gender was part of but not the entire reason we switched.

In fact, the alum we quote as an example of the trouble with the word love is male:

We used to say applicants must "love" programming, but we've learned that was a mistake. While it sounds good, it doesn't actually describe what we care about, and it was dissuading qualified people from applying.

In fact, many of our best students have said they almost didn't apply because they worried they didn't love programming enough. Hacker School alum David Peter expressed this fear perfectly:

  One of the questions in the interview was, "Do you love programming?"
  I said   yes, because I loved it more than most people I knew.
  But was it love? I enjoyed writing and drawing equally, if not more.
  After Hacker School, I'm revisiting these hobbies. Programming wasn't my first love."*
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