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It Is Time For Basic Income

hawkins.ventures

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Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#11

Post by eudox »

krazydad wrote: post #2

I am not at all an economist, but I wonder: if everyone had the same amount of fixed income (in addition to whatever else they made from their jobs), wouldn't there be continual inflation, rendering that money worthless? Wouldn't the fixed income become the new zero income? Also: How does Macdonalds work in this situation, if the fixed income "replaces" minimum wage. Does Macdonalds pay on top of this wage? Do they d…

I was thinking about this the other day. I'm not trained in economics or anything, but since UBI is universal, and amount of money in people's checkbooks is simultaneously and predictably increased, the inflation wouldn't have any of the consequences of usual inflation (For citizens).

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#12

Post by dragonwriter »

krazydad wrote: post #2

I am not at all an economist, but I wonder: if everyone had the same amount of fixed income (in addition to whatever else they made from their jobs), wouldn't there be continual inflation, rendering that money worthless? Wouldn't the fixed income become the new zero income? Also: How does Macdonalds work in this situation, if the fixed income "replaces" minimum wage. Does Macdonalds pay on top of this wage? Do they d…

> I am not at all an economist, but I wonder: if everyone had the same amount of fixed income (in addition to whatever else they made from their jobs), wouldn't there would be continual inflation, rendering that money worthless?

Not necessarily. You'd expect some inflation, but if the level of basic income was set at a low enough level (what that is depends on the overall productivity of the economy) it wouldn't be "continual" (well, if you exclude all other effects on price level but the basic income and its effect on price and the effect of that price change on wages, and the effect of those wage changes on price, etc., the effect might be "continual", but it would be asymptotically approaching a finite limit, so not unbounded, which is really where there would be a problem.)

> Also: How does Macdonalds work in this situation, if the fixed income "replaces" minimum wage. Does Macdonalds pay on top of this wage?

Yes.

> Do they double it?

They pay whatever the work is worth to them.

> Do they pay zero? If they pay zero, what incentives workers to work at Macdonalds?

Nothing, so they don't pay zero.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#13

Post by TrainedMonkey »

Retric wrote: post #8
krazydad wrote: post #2

I am not at all an economist, but I wonder: if everyone had the same amount of fixed income (in addition to whatever else they made from their jobs), wouldn't there be continual inflation, rendering that money worthless? Wouldn't the fixed income become the new zero income? Also: How does Macdonalds work in this situation, if the fixed income "replaces" minimum wage. Does Macdonalds pay on top of this wage? Do they d…

To make things simple let's assume a flat tax of 20% pays a 10k per year basic income. Someone making 0k ends up with .8 * 0k + 10k = 10k. Someone making 10k ends up with .8 * 10k + 10k = 18k. Someone making 50k ends up with .8 * 50k + 10k = 50k. Someone making 100k ends up with .8 * 100k + 10k = 90k. Someone making 200k ends up with .8 * 200k + 10k = 170k. Thus the only people that get the full amount are those who…

In US people around median income and above see immediate tax reduction by quite a significant margin.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#14

Post by mbesto »

krazydad wrote: post #2

I am not at all an economist, but I wonder: if everyone had the same amount of fixed income (in addition to whatever else they made from their jobs), wouldn't there be continual inflation, rendering that money worthless? Wouldn't the fixed income become the new zero income? Also: How does Macdonalds work in this situation, if the fixed income "replaces" minimum wage. Does Macdonalds pay on top of this wage? Do they d…

This question comes up every time - here is a great explanation of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtpgkX588nM

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#16

Post by _august »

robobenjie wrote: post #4
krazydad wrote: post #2

I am not at all an economist, but I wonder: if everyone had the same amount of fixed income (in addition to whatever else they made from their jobs), wouldn't there be continual inflation, rendering that money worthless? Wouldn't the fixed income become the new zero income? Also: How does Macdonalds work in this situation, if the fixed income "replaces" minimum wage. Does Macdonalds pay on top of this wage? Do they d…

It replaces minimum wage in that McDonalds is welcome to offer a job flipping burgers for $1 an hour if they want. However, because no one _needs_ a job to live (because they can just live on the basic income) someone would only take that job if it was worth it/fulfilling to them.

Or alternatively, it could cause the wage to increase, as people won't be as desperate for just any job, driving down the demand for such jobs.

It would start to make financial sense for McDonalds to invest in automating several tasks which are currently cheaper for McDonalds to hire someone for. Imagine if you order and pay through a machine (I saw one of these at Jack in the Box already).

The person behind the counter could instead be working on their dreams of being a musician, artist, studying for college, etc.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#17

Post by lukasm »

bureaucratic overhead with proper tech is close to zero. Basic Icome is too a big leap in social and political context. I am very much in favour of Minimal Activity proposition. It's way more easier to implement.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#18

Post by jaredgeorge »

robobenjie wrote: post #4
krazydad wrote: post #2

I am not at all an economist, but I wonder: if everyone had the same amount of fixed income (in addition to whatever else they made from their jobs), wouldn't there be continual inflation, rendering that money worthless? Wouldn't the fixed income become the new zero income? Also: How does Macdonalds work in this situation, if the fixed income "replaces" minimum wage. Does Macdonalds pay on top of this wage? Do they d…

It replaces minimum wage in that McDonalds is welcome to offer a job flipping burgers for $1 an hour if they want. However, because no one _needs_ a job to live (because they can just live on the basic income) someone would only take that job if it was worth it/fulfilling to them.

And this is why the model would not work. I don't believe that there are enough people who would find fulfillment in flipping burgers, unclogging toilets, roofing in AZ in July...

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#19

Post by maxsilver »

krazydad wrote: post #2

I am not at all an economist, but I wonder: if everyone had the same amount of fixed income (in addition to whatever else they made from their jobs), wouldn't there be continual inflation, rendering that money worthless? Wouldn't the fixed income become the new zero income? Also: How does Macdonalds work in this situation, if the fixed income "replaces" minimum wage. Does Macdonalds pay on top of this wage? Do they d…

> How does MacDonalds work?

I'm not an economist either, but here's how I'd like to see the McDonalds example play out :

Presumably, McD's pay folks on top of their basic income to entice people to work for them.

Eventually, these wages get high enough (and robots become cheap enough / advanced enough) that it becomes cheaper to automate away those jobs. The gained productivity allows McDonald's prices to drop, and a (properly configured) tax eats a healthy portion of McDonald's new profits. That tax goes directly into the basic income fund, lifting all citizens basic income by some amount.

People are still incentives to do icky jobs now (because they get more than basic income) and as they disappear, those efficiencies become profit, which is taxed and dumped into basic income which then goes up (so we lift everyone to higher standards of living as we destroy jobs people no longer need to do)

Eventually, that process repeats in every business and every industry, until we live in a Star Trek style post-currency economy, where people only work for exercise / interest / fun, and all necessities are covered by machines for some amount near free.

It's not an overnight thing, it's a "spread out over the next century" type change, where basic income started at the US minimum wage, but (over 100 years) eventually gives folks the 100-year-from-now equivalent of 100k/year salary as basic income.

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