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US tech giants knew of NSA data collection, agency's top lawyer insists

theguardian.com

11–20 of 44 posts

Re: US tech giants knew of NSA data collection, agency's top lawyer insists

#11
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second paragraph of the article claims that companies knew about "upstream" collection as well. This is, from my understanding, the main point, as the Google engineer Brandon Downey issued the very harsh statement, and I quote, "fuck these guys", when the infamous smiley-face slide leaked. EDIT: Apparently the "upstream" collection does not refer to the third capture method in question, which exploited the fact t…

The "fuck you"s were directed at interceptions under executive order 12333 which as the second to last paragraph makes clear was not a subject of discussion. PRISM and UPSTREAM featured in the same slide which would explain them being discussed together, but UPSTREAM isn't subject to tech firms' whims so the discussion might have been concerning telecom firms as well. The reporting isn't clear, best read the transcri…

I stand corrected. Thank you for clarifying.

Re: US tech giants knew of NSA data collection, agency's top lawyer insists

#12
Of course they did (do). Just like telcos.

What is amazing is the carelessness that the government shows w.r.t. protecting the interests of American tech firms. NSA could hardly have done more to destroy worldwide trust and credibility in our tech industry.

Re: US tech giants knew of NSA data collection, agency's top lawyer insists

#13
post #5

First, even if the companies did know, there was probably a tacit agreement with the NSA that the NSA would always allow them plausible deniability. "Not only are you doing your country a great (and legally-required) service, but everyone involved will go to their graves with the details. Have you heard about how [competitors/famous-companies X, Y, Z] have fully cooperated for decades? You haven't? Exactly." The NSA…

Correct. Companies are not monolithic. How many people do you need to know about it, in order to hide something from the monitoring systems and management alike? 10? 2?

Re: US tech giants knew of NSA data collection, agency's top lawyer insists

#14
post #5

First, even if the companies did know, there was probably a tacit agreement with the NSA that the NSA would always allow them plausible deniability. "Not only are you doing your country a great (and legally-required) service, but everyone involved will go to their graves with the details. Have you heard about how [competitors/famous-companies X, Y, Z] have fully cooperated for decades? You haven't? Exactly." The NSA…

Internal corporate collaborators unknown to the executives speaks to a failure of corporate security/infosec. I'd imagine current CEOs are increasing their organizations security measures to protect not only against corporate espionage but also state players. If you are CEO and you are forced to comply that is bad, but not nearly so bad as complying without knowing it is happening. Not knowing doesn't allow you to leverage legal, oversee the extent of compliance or plan for the contingency of the compliance becoming public.

Re: US tech giants knew of NSA data collection, agency's top lawyer insists

#16
post #13
post #5

First, even if the companies did know, there was probably a tacit agreement with the NSA that the NSA would always allow them plausible deniability. "Not only are you doing your country a great (and legally-required) service, but everyone involved will go to their graves with the details. Have you heard about how [competitors/famous-companies X, Y, Z] have fully cooperated for decades? You haven't? Exactly." The NSA…

Correct. Companies are not monolithic. How many people do you need to know about it, in order to hide something from the monitoring systems and management alike? 10? 2?

The lawyer quoted in the article appears to contradict this: “Collection under this program was a compulsory legal process, that any recipient company would receive.” That's not a black bag job.

Re: US tech giants knew of NSA data collection, agency's top lawyer insists

#17
As davesean points out below, this isn't talking about fiber tapping and whatnot, this is talking about FISA orders

> Neither De nor any other US official discussed data taken from the internet under different legal authorities. Different documents Snowden disclosed, published by the Washington Post, indicated that NSA takes data as it transits between Yahoo and Google data centers, an activity reportedly conducted not under Section 702 but under a seminal executive order known as 12333.

So the companies knew that they were receiving secret court orders to disclose data. Well, duh.

Edit: he even says so explicitly:

> “All 702 collection is pursuant to court directives, so they have to know,” De reiterated to the Guardian.

Thanks for saving that for the last line. All the rest is just trying to connect dots they have no new evidence for.

Re: US tech giants knew of NSA data collection, agency's top lawyer insists

#19
This caps off some pretty amazing reasoning.

Earlier, the government insisted that simply collecting information in their databases was not a 4th ammendment violation, because the actual 'search' only occured when they _search_ the database, not when they collect and put in their database.

(I think maybe they even defined 'collect' so it somehow only applied when they did a search, not when they actually collected?)

Now they:

> ...strongly rejected suggestions by the panel that a court authorise searches for Americans’ information inside the 702 databases. “If you have to go back to court every time you look at the information in your custody, you can imagine that would be quite burdensome,” deputy assistant attorney general Brad Wiegmann told the board.

> De argued that once the Fisa court permits the collection annually, analysts ought to be free to comb through it, and stated that there were sufficient privacy safeguards for Americans after collection and querying had occurred. “That information is at the government’s disposal to review in the first instance,” De said.

Combine them both, and, well, you see where you get.

Re: US tech giants knew of NSA data collection, agency's top lawyer insists

#20
post #15

Tl;dr: They ALL knew. They were ordered to comply. The denials are lies.

No, it appears this is only talking about the FISA court orders

>> “All 702 collection is pursuant to court directives, so they have to know,” De reiterated to the Guardian.

So, yes, companies knew they were being served with FISA warrants (that they complied with) but AFAICT they were unaware that the NSA was tapping their data lines like the example where they tapped data lines between Google's (and others) data centers. [1]

[1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-in...

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