Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

gizmodo.com.au

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 72 posts

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#11

Post by 9oliYQjP »

martythemaniak wrote: post #4

At the risk of sounding like an asshole, it's nice to see one's views validated. Some of us have been getting downmodded for bad-mouthing Apple's App Store and warning against this kind of stuff since its launch. It's important to note that none of Apple's written or implicit policies have changed - it is only people's perceptions that are now changing. The good part is of this debacle is that, either they will chang…

The thing about the App Store is that it allows small developers to reach huge audiences without a lot of logistical headaches. Little things to brick and mortar stores, like charging the right amount of tax to a customer, are huge problems on the web when you're trying to reach customers across the world. On the other hand, there are definite risks associated with using the App Store and this is one of them. You're absolutely right that people will abandon the App Store for greener pastures. Let's just wait to see where those greener pastures are.

Also, as you said, nothing has changed. Developers trying to make money are businesses first and foremost. They should leave their fanboy-ism at home when they set up shop. The people that are complaining the most about getting screwed by the App Store, as jws points out in another comment in this thread, are the ones that probably didn't even bother reading the contract between Apple and them, let alone getting a lawyer to give them specific legal advice about it for them.

I know that the barrier of entry for starting a business is quite low these days, but that doesn't mean that standards for professionalism should drop correspondingly. Part of being a professional is understanding what your obligations are. These obligations are outlined in contracts. Contracts are the emergency manuals that get pulled out in case something goes wrong. They dictate what you agreed to do in those situations. You wouldn't haphazardly sign an emergency evacuation plan. You'd probably read it over and try to understand if it all made sense. Treat your contracts the same way. They're all about corner cases, so they're a big deal.

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#12

Post by dejb »

martythemaniak wrote: post #4

At the risk of sounding like an asshole, it's nice to see one's views validated. Some of us have been getting downmodded for bad-mouthing Apple's App Store and warning against this kind of stuff since its launch. It's important to note that none of Apple's written or implicit policies have changed - it is only people's perceptions that are now changing. The good part is of this debacle is that, either they will chang…

It certainly has been a strange phenomena, seeing otherwise intelligent geeks arguing the virtues of such a closed and locked down system. I frankly started to wonder whether Apple had a team of paid voters. Hopefully all this results in a freeing up of US mobile networks.

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#13

Post by TomOfTTB »

9oliYQjP wrote: post #11
martythemaniak wrote: post #4

At the risk of sounding like an asshole, it's nice to see one's views validated. Some of us have been getting downmodded for bad-mouthing Apple's App Store and warning against this kind of stuff since its launch. It's important to note that none of Apple's written or implicit policies have changed - it is only people's perceptions that are now changing. The good part is of this debacle is that, either they will chang…

The thing about the App Store is that it allows small developers to reach huge audiences without a lot of logistical headaches. Little things to brick and mortar stores, like charging the right amount of tax to a customer, are huge problems on the web when you're trying to reach customers across the world. On the other hand, there are definite risks associated with using the App Store and this is one of them. You're…

The problem here is that you're confusing "legally wrong" with "morally wrong". I don't think anyone here is questioning the fact that Apple has completely covered their ass with the developer agreement. In fact they’ve essentially made it so they can do just about anything with impunity.

But that doesn’t make it right or fair. I’m not one of those “everything should be open” types but Apple should at least be required to publicly spell out its terms. In the example given in the article a developer had their app approved and it was actually in the store for months. Apple then pulled it months later and refused to even give the reason why (which in turn prevented the developer from remedying the situation). Then turned around and said the developer was responsible for dealing with the disgruntled customers even if it meant refunding their money (which they'd have to do since they had no way to remedy the situation).

Further I'd suggest these discussions have a precedent in our society. Society recognizes the fact that some things are simply too morally wrong to be allowed. Even by contract. If I sign a contract saying I allow you to do anything you want to me you still can't beat me to death with a baseball bat. Though this is obviously not in the same realm of heinousness as that the precedent is the same. You can't legally indemnify yourself against that which society won't tolerate.

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#14

Post by TomOfTTB »

chaosprophet wrote: post #8
martythemaniak wrote: post #4

At the risk of sounding like an asshole, it's nice to see one's views validated. Some of us have been getting downmodded for bad-mouthing Apple's App Store and warning against this kind of stuff since its launch. It's important to note that none of Apple's written or implicit policies have changed - it is only people's perceptions that are now changing. The good part is of this debacle is that, either they will chang…

What I would like to see is a widespread developer boycott of the iPhone platform. This would bring Apple back to the days where they used to cajole developers into writing software for the Mac.

As long as there is money to be made there will always be developers so a boycott is pointless. If every developer currently in the app store decided to abandon it tomorrow it would only serve to create an irresistible target for developers who had been turned off by the heavy competition.

Until we live in a world where every developer has all the money they could ever want there will always be developers for a platform with over 30 million potential customers.

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#15

Post by Gormo »

chaosprophet wrote: post #8
martythemaniak wrote: post #4

At the risk of sounding like an asshole, it's nice to see one's views validated. Some of us have been getting downmodded for bad-mouthing Apple's App Store and warning against this kind of stuff since its launch. It's important to note that none of Apple's written or implicit policies have changed - it is only people's perceptions that are now changing. The good part is of this debacle is that, either they will chang…

What I would like to see is a widespread developer boycott of the iPhone platform. This would bring Apple back to the days where they used to cajole developers into writing software for the Mac.

The analogy with the Mac doesn't really work, because the Mac has never been anything but a computing platform. But the iPhone is a phone first and a platform second. Remember that the iPhone was a huge success when it was introduced in 2007, despite a higher price point and no third-party apps at all.

As long as the iPhone is subsidized by phone carriers, Apple's cash cow will be hardware sales. It won't be until the smartphone market reaches a certain level of saturation that Apple will have an incentive to focus on the App Store as a revenue generator. And when that happens, I bet they will be a lot less mercurial with their developers.

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#16

Post by sammcd »

Why is this only newsworthy when Google has to pay the price. Developers have had to pay this price since the inception of the app store. This is one part of the agreement that I think is very unfair, and I am glad it is getting press.

Sure we signed a legal agreement, but still it is a bad deal for us, and we have no alternative.

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#17

Post by DougBTX »

jws wrote: post #5

Of course they have to pay the customer refunds. The developers accepted a contract agreeing to refund money in certain circumstances, the circumstance have occurred, it is time for them to uphold their end of the contract. The sales have been rolled back, the customers' money is in the developers account (as sympathetic as "pocket" sounds, if they can carry the money in their pocket then this is about very little mo…

> The customers' money is in the developers account

It gets worse: some 30% of that money is in Apple's pocket, but 100% of the refund comes from the developer.

Apple gets to keep their cut even after the refund, as per the developer contract, even though the reason for the refunds is because of Apple blocking further deployments from the developer.

Harsh circumstances.

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#18

Post by locopati »

9oliYQjP wrote: post #6
quoderat wrote: post #2

If Apple gets any more evil, they will become kind of parody found in a Mike Myers movie. Makes me regret buying my Cinema Display from them

I went to a free iPhone Developer Tech Talk where they specifically addressed this policy. Not too many developers in the audience seemed thrilled about it, but it was laid out in front of them. If a customer comes to you for whatever reason asking for a refund, Apple's official policy is that it is your problem to deal with. I specifically made a note about it because I caught the Apple representative's very lawyer-…

I don't think developers have a problem with paying a full refund for user-returned apps so much as a problem with paying a full refund for Apple-returned apps (the capriciousness is just the icing on the cake).

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#19

Post by [deleted] »

TomOfTTB wrote: post #13
9oliYQjP wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about the App Store is that it allows small developers to reach huge audiences without a lot of logistical headaches. Little things to brick and mortar stores, like charging the right amount of tax to a customer, are huge problems on the web when you're trying to reach customers across the world. On the other hand, there are definite risks associated with using the App Store and this is one of them. You're…

The problem here is that you're confusing "legally wrong" with "morally wrong". I don't think anyone here is questioning the fact that Apple has completely covered their ass with the developer agreement. In fact they’ve essentially made it so they can do just about anything with impunity. But that doesn’t make it right or fair. I’m not one of those “everything should be open” types but Apple should at least be requir…

[deleted]

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#20

Post by 9oliYQjP »

TomOfTTB wrote: post #13
9oliYQjP wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about the App Store is that it allows small developers to reach huge audiences without a lot of logistical headaches. Little things to brick and mortar stores, like charging the right amount of tax to a customer, are huge problems on the web when you're trying to reach customers across the world. On the other hand, there are definite risks associated with using the App Store and this is one of them. You're…

The problem here is that you're confusing "legally wrong" with "morally wrong". I don't think anyone here is questioning the fact that Apple has completely covered their ass with the developer agreement. In fact they’ve essentially made it so they can do just about anything with impunity. But that doesn’t make it right or fair. I’m not one of those “everything should be open” types but Apple should at least be requir…

Well we're at risk of defining what is right or fair. I loved my first year philosophy course just as much as the other guy but that's a damn slippery slope to go down :) I will say one thing on this matter though. Companies are amoral. The App Store may prove to be unpalatable, but don't think that some other company is more moral than another because when it comes down to it, morals are irrelevant to companies. It's why I believe in a strong regulatory government to keep companies in check, but again I'm at risk of getting this thread off on a tangent :)

Additionally, Apple has always remained consistent on their position on both revocation and refunds. It is public in that developers are told about this and must agree to the terms before joining. That's about as public as is necessary in my books.

So this should not be news to the developer. Let me bring up the relevant parts of the contract. I've skipped most of the examples because the last one is so broad as to cover the rest.

iPhone Developer Program License Agreement

8. Revocation

You understand and agree that Apple may cease distribution of Your Licensed Application(s) and/or Licensed Application information or revoke the digital certificate of any of Your Applications at any time. By way of example only, Apple might choose to do this if at any time:

.

.

.

(l) Apple has reason to believe that such action is prudent or necessary.

Also, Schedule 1, and 2 (which I believe is unique on a per-country basis) outlines the legal obligations for refunds.

EXHIBIT A (to Schedule 1)

4. Warranty: You must be solely responsible for any product warranties, whether express or implied by law, to the extent not effectively disclaimed. The EULA must provide that, in the event of any failure of the Licensed Application to conform to any applicable warranty, the end-user may notify Apple, and Apple will refund the purchase price for the Licensed Application to that end-user: and that, to the maximum extent permitted by applicable law, Apple will have no other warranty obligation whatsoever with respect to the Licensed Application, and any other claims, losses, liabilities, damages, costs or expenses attributable to any failure to conform to any warranty will be Your sole responsibility.

Post reply on HN