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Mathematicians are chronically lost and confused

j2kun.svbtle.com

11–20 of 200 posts

Re: Mathematicians are chronically lost and confused

#11
post #5

This misses the dangerous part, which is mathematicians in groups can confuse each other into accepting ideas which are basically nonsensical, especially if the counter argument relies on some obvious but intuitive observation of reality but cannot be easily formalised within their chosen framework of the moment. As a consequence of this it wouldn't surprise me if the overwhelming majority of maths was actually incoh…

I'm going to be rather dismissive in my reply, and for that, I apologize, because I'm not quite sure how else to respond.

This is more or less a non-issue. Thanks to mathematicians building on Euclid for the last 2300 years, we have a system of mathematics built on a few basic principles (that you would not disagree with) and deductive reasoning. If you take a theorem that is accepted as proven, you can almost definitely follow an immense chain of logic back to the fundamentals. It will take you a ridiculous amount of time to do so, but it is possible.

If you're referring to specific debates in the math community (e.g. "I feel that the general math community accepting the axiom of choice was a bad idea") then that's worth being specific about in your post.

Re: Mathematicians are chronically lost and confused

#13
No, the OP is giving bad advice.

Reading good foundational text books carefully is darned good advice. But for solving every exercise before moving on, no, that's not a good idea. Instead, be willing to be happy solving some 90-99% of the exercises. For the rest, guess, with some evidence, that they are incorrectly stated, out of place, just too darned hard, or some such. If insist on solving 100%, then get on the Internet and look for solutions.

Next, if read some foundational text books, then in each subject also read several competing text books, perhaps just one mostly but also look at least a little at the others for views from 'a different angle' that can be a big help. Why? Because likely no text book is perfect and, instead, in some places is awkward, unclear, misleading, clumsy, etc. So, views from a 'different angle' can make it much easier to learn both better and faster.

His description of doing applications by just getting what really need and forgetting the rest can be done but is not so good. Instead, having a good foundation helps a lot. And, commonly for an application in an important field, there really is some good material in that field that should understand with the application. Else risk doing the application significantly less well than could have.

His description from Wiles is more or less okay for doing some research but, really, not for learning. And for research, more of a 'strategic' overview, i.e., with the 'lay of the land', would be good, i.e., for publishing not just one okay, likely isolated, paper but a series of better papers that yield a nice 'contribution'.

Re: Mathematicians are chronically lost and confused

#14
post #5

This misses the dangerous part, which is mathematicians in groups can confuse each other into accepting ideas which are basically nonsensical, especially if the counter argument relies on some obvious but intuitive observation of reality but cannot be easily formalised within their chosen framework of the moment. As a consequence of this it wouldn't surprise me if the overwhelming majority of maths was actually incoh…

You can stop worrying now: what you're afraid of doesn't actually happen, though I sort of see how someone who hasn't spent their life studying mathematics might worry that it does. Since you have to back up your ideas with proofs, you can't in the long run hoodwink people into accepting false statements.

You also seem to worry about mathematicians accepting perfectly consistent sets of ideas even when those ideas contradict "inuititive observation of reality". To that I can only say that mathematics is not a subject where intuitive observation of reality plays any major role. What decides whether some piece of math is good or not is whether it is logically consistent, found interesting by people, and useful, either in other parts of mathematics or in applications to the real world. Notice in particular, that if the applications work no-one cares if part of the math leading to them contradicts any given person's intuition. For example, physics uses real numbers a lot and your intuition might tell you they don't make sense because there can't be uncountably many different things of any kind. But physics work extremely well and the math it uses is consistent, so we use it even if it doesn't sit well with a few people.

Re: Mathematicians are chronically lost and confused

#15
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be a lot more worried about the danger you mention if you could give even one example of that happening, ever. What ideas are mathematicians confusing each other into accepting that are basically nonsensical?

Cantor's conception of transfinite numbers is the one that I think has done most damage.

How are transfinite numbers "nonsensical"?

When you get into infinity, you have two notions of "number" that diverge. Mathematical operations on them do different things. (For example, cardinal "exponentiation" is the power set; ordinal "exponentiation" is something different and smaller.) One is size, but proper subsets can have the same size at infinity (integers, even numbers, rationals). That's where Aleph-0 (cardinality of the integers) and "c" (cardinality of the reals) come from. With cardinal infinities, you can't really do meaningful arithmetic because the field properties don't apply. "Infinity" violates the mathematical fact that x+1 != x, for example.

The other notion comes from the concept of a well-ordered set, which also maps nicely to "indexes" into possibly infinite lists. With this foundation, you have more options in terms of mathematical manipulations: you can add ordinals (but not always subtract them) and, because they pertain to list operations, the traditional "field" properties aren't always commutative. That's where we get ω, ω+1, ω^2, ω^ω, ε_0 and so on. Those all have rigorous definitions. For example, ω^2 is the order type of ordered pairs of numbers with lexicographic comparison:

    (0, 0) 
... and ω^ω is the order type of formal natural-number polynomials in one variable with lexicographic comparison:

    0 
Where things get messy is that the relationship between cardinal and ordinal numbers (more formally, what ordinal number has the same cardinality as the reals, or the continuum?) is, in fact, formally undecidable. (Continuum Hypothesis). That doesn't mean no one has solved it. It means there's no mathematical way to refute or prove it from ZFC, the Zermelo-Frankel set axioms plus the Axiom of Choice. The CH is neither true nor false, insofar as one can have valid mathematics with or without it.

To put the above more succinctly, we know that the countable ordinals are a well-ordered set (totally ordered with a minimum) and since no set contains itself, that set is uncountable. It is, in fact, the smallest countable set (the ordinal numbers are totally ordered by the subset relation). That's called ω_1. Intuitively, we might hope that that's also the same "size" as the real numbers (we don't know of any smaller uncountable infinities, and we can't construct any). But there is no way to prove or refute whether that is true. Mathematics is valid either way; it has to "fork".

It's not "nonsensical". What it is is formal. It may or may not map to the real world. You can't actually perform Banach-Tarski (Axiom of Choice hack) on an orange, nor can you store a complete Hamel basis on your hard drive. But these concepts are still useful in defining our notion of what a "set", precisely, is.

Re: Mathematicians are chronically lost and confused

#16
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be a lot more worried about the danger you mention if you could give even one example of that happening, ever. What ideas are mathematicians confusing each other into accepting that are basically nonsensical?

Cantor's conception of transfinite numbers is the one that I think has done most damage.

More info: http://scientopia.org/blogs/goodmath/tag/cantor-crank/

Re: Mathematicians are chronically lost and confused

#17
post #3

I think this is a good read, although I don't agree with all of it - I'm of the mind that there is immense value in being able to figure out difficult proofs. The process develops your logical ability.

I'm of the mind that there is immense value in being able to figure out difficult proofs. Absolutely. However, the rabbit hole is very deep. Many papers make leaps from one sentence to the next that, if you're not familiar with the field, can take a couple days to figure out. Even then, real world proofs are informal and therefore not air-tight. They're close enough, almost always, but there's a reason why a mathemat…

> most of it can't be done that way and remain useful to humans (like assembly language, it's too low-level for most applications).

Sincere question (I'm not a mathematician): why can't it be done that way?!

On top of an assembly language you can create a higher level language and on top of that an even higher level one, and it is airtight, it has to be or the code won't compile or will throw a runtime exception, the compiler or interpreter doesn't just "roll a dice" when it comes across and ambiguous statement! You just can't have ambiguous statements, so starting from a "precise" assembler everything else built on top can absolutely be "air tight" at the language level.

(Now concerning what the program actually ends up doing (like something else than you intended), or that sometimes you trade off security for speed and get a buffer overflow, ok, these things happen, but not at the language level! usually, and when they do - like C programs exploiting undefined but known for certain targets compiler behavior this is either advanced malicious obsfucation or random rookie mistakes.)

So explaining the question: why can't one build a higher level mathematical language bottom up, starting from an "assembler" of machine-checkable proof steps and building one or a few levels of higher level human-friendly languages that still map unambiguously to the lower level one?

Just because mathematical language has evolved in a top down fashion, starting with describing proofs in words or symbols derived from words, and then developing more an more precise language and systems, it doesn't mean that one can't go the reverse route, bottom up, an maybe meet closer to the top in a way, so that the resulting new mathematical language will be similar enough to classical one not to scare everyone away, right?

...and the benefits seem immense! Imagine:

(1) replacing years of peer review replaced by machine checking basic correcting (+ some machine testing on huge data samples, for testable proofs, just to be sure there was no bug)

(2) AI expert systems bringing real contributions to math by actually discovering new proofs AND providing them in a language understandable for humans, so humans learn from them and discover new techniques

EDIT+: (3) allowing the development of much more advanced theories, because just as in software you can build much larger systems once you learn how to write more "bug free" code, the actual complexity of the proof could be much larger and maybe new realms of mathematical will become accessible to human understanding once we have a "linguistic aid" to reducing the percent of faulty proofs and the time spent debugging them

Re: Mathematicians are chronically lost and confused

#18
Mathematicians are indeed lost and confused but in a very different way from beginning students. One must put in one's dues in what Terence Tao calls the "rigorous" phase before one can become productively confused in the "post-rigorous" phase. http://terrytao.wordpress.com/career-advice/there%E2%80%99s-...

Re: Mathematicians are chronically lost and confused

#19
This is true with many, many things. Very often it is the connections between ideas that yields the deep understanding, not the ideas themselves. Focusing too intensely on a single idea or subject results in not making connections and, consequently, not really understanding.

Re: Mathematicians are chronically lost and confused

#20
Secondary math education, for me in the UK, didn't deal with anything outside of elementary algebra, Euclidean geometry, some statistics, and relatively simple calculus. Nobody talked to us about imaginary or complex numbers, or bayes theorem, decision theory, or non-trivial mechanics problems until I was in college (age 16+). Nobody mentioned matrices, broader number theory or discrete transforms until I was in university. I studied EE not compsci. Things like algorithmic complexity I had to learn for myself and from Knuth. I'm trying to grok group theory right now to help with my understanding of crypto. Before this, it was never mentioned throughout my education, so I don't know what courses you would have had to take to learn that. The fact that I didn't even know group theory was important to crypto until after I had made the choice strikes me as a bad sign.

The common theme at every level is learning cherry-picked skills, before you're even told what the branches of mathematics even are. Everything seems disjointed because you're not taught to look past the trees for the forest. Most people infact, even technical folk, go through their entire lives without knowing the forest even exists. Any idiot can point to a random part of their anatomy and posit that there's a field of study dedicated to it. The same goes for mechanics or computer science. You just can't do that with mathematics as a student.

I loath academic papers. Often I find I spend days or weeks deciphering mathematics in compsci papers only to find the underlying concept is intuitive and plain, but you're forced to learn it bottom up, constructing the authors original genius from the cryptic scrawlings they left in their paper... and you realise a couple of block diagrams and a few short paragraphs could have made the process a lot less frustrating.

So many ideas seem closed to mortals because of the nature of mathematics.

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