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The world’s rich stay rich while the poor struggle to prosper

johnkay.com

11–20 of 138 posts

Re: The world’s rich stay rich while the poor struggle to prosper

#11

Sorry, but does this guy not realize that many of the world's richest people gave half their wealth to the Gates foundation, thus forming an engine for human improvement that could have never been attained by distributing their wealth? The wealth divide is not a "real" problem - the real problem is figuring out how to keep everyone employed in a world that is constantly evolving, where most jobs are getting automated…

First, I don't understand what you are trying to argue, as that "engine" works by redistributing their wealth.

Second, John Kay's arguments are not contradicting (or even discussing) the main premise of Bill Gates' letter - which is to convince people aid is effective, but one specific argument made within it regarding wealth and the global economy:

> I was surprised and disappointed that the data you chose to support your case referred not to the distribution of average incomes across states – the subject of your letter – but to the distribution of household incomes across the world. These are very different things.

If I was an economist, I would also point out that mixing up the data like is disingenuous and probably damaging to the overall argument, even if to lay-people like you and me it makes little difference.

Finally, as far as I can see the author of this article and Gates want the same thing: to help the poorest on the planet. The difference is that Gates focuses on what has worked and what his vision is of what happens when things go right. Kay on the other hand focuses on what has gone wrong and is still going wrong and why, and thus is deserving of being paid attention to by people with the power and intent to change things (like Bill Gates for example). This is constructive criticism.

Re: The world’s rich stay rich while the poor struggle to prosper

#12
I've always been baffled by the investment choices of billionaires. If you accept an empirical view of the universe, no matter what you do, you will eventually die. Your experiences of the world will cease to exist. Therefore, the only rational investment would be in life extension technologies (SENS, advanced prosthesis, etc.).

At first, this might sound repulsive. The idea of a group of elites discovering and hoarding the fountain of youth for themselves while the masses suffer is dystopian. However, upon closer examination, it becomes clear that the money invested in achieving any significant life extension will have a massive public benefit. This is because combating aging requires curing almost every known disease at its source. Any progress made in this front will have massive benefits to healthcare worldwide.

So the question is, why do billionaires invest so irrationally? Why do they buy yachts and invest in hedge funds and social media companies? From the comment below, 113 billionaires out of 1426 are current members of the The Giving Pledge. What are the rest doing with their money?

P.S. I must be clear that I don't consider members of Bill Gates' Giving Pledge part of the group of "irrational billionaires". The Gates Foundation funds an incredible amount of basic research for a philanthropic organization.

Re: The world’s rich stay rich while the poor struggle to prosper

#13

Sorry, but does this guy not realize that many of the world's richest people gave half their wealth to the Gates foundation, thus forming an engine for human improvement that could have never been attained by distributing their wealth? The wealth divide is not a "real" problem - the real problem is figuring out how to keep everyone employed in a world that is constantly evolving, where most jobs are getting automated…

Some of the world's richest people have signed a non legally binding pledge to give half their wealth to the Gates Foundation eventually

Re: The world’s rich stay rich while the poor struggle to prosper

#14
post #12

I've always been baffled by the investment choices of billionaires. If you accept an empirical view of the universe, no matter what you do, you will eventually die. Your experiences of the world will cease to exist. Therefore, the only rational investment would be in life extension technologies (SENS, advanced prosthesis, etc.). At first, this might sound repulsive. The idea of a group of elites discovering and hoard…

Having kids is the old-school form of immortality. I imagine many of those other billionaires are thinking about their dynasty.

Re: The world’s rich stay rich while the poor struggle to prosper

#15

People like this grind my gears. Many things go into being rich, but the top of that list is making more money than you give away. Practically by definition, people who continue to do this will continue to get rich. There is no shortage of humanitarian efforts, funds, and foundations started by the wealthy for the sake of the underprivileged. To suggest these are insufficient because their founders remain wealthy is…

> Many things go into being rich, but the top of that list is making more money than you give away. Practically by definition, people who continue to do this will continue to get rich.

Except there is this thing called "diminishing returns" that somehow does not apply to being rich. Also, wouldn't "spend" be a more appropriate description than "give away" here?

> There is no shortage of humanitarian efforts, funds, and foundations started by the wealthy for the sake of the underprivileged. To suggest these are insufficient because their founders remain wealthy is foolhardy.

Luckily, the author of this article isn't suggesting that - he is arguing that in its current form these efforts are insufficient because the poor remain poor, and that he has good reasons to believe they will stay poor if we don't change specific problems not addressed in Gates' letter.

Re: The world’s rich stay rich while the poor struggle to prosper

#16
Seems like the point this guy is trying to make is that being poor is relative. So while poor countries are now better off than they were 50 years ago they are still about as poor as they were 50 years ago in comparison to other countries that also become better off.

I don't know if this is a good or a bad way to measure a country.

Would there not be any poor countries if all countries had about the same wealth distribution? Perhaps all countries would be poor then.

Re: The world’s rich stay rich while the poor struggle to prosper

#17
Bill Gates would have to believe his efforts were worthwhile in order to keep himself motivated to try. He's essentially "all-in" on the Gates Foundation. His pronouncement on eliminating poverty is an aspiration he phrases as a "fact" and we are taken aback by the audacious claim, primarily because he's been wildly successful before, so hey, lightning might strike twice.

What if? And why discourage him?

It doesn't seem likely to me, but I don't have billions to spend proving my theories. When I think in terms of probably outcomes, it seems more likely that the US will regress towards the global mean, rather than remaining as a permanent statistical outlier.

I also keep in mind that "poverty" has a way of becoming a dynamic definition. In the US, it's becoming that anyone below the 33rd percentile is poor by that definition. So poverty is always with us in that frame of mind.

Re: The world’s rich stay rich while the poor struggle to prosper

#18
post #12

I've always been baffled by the investment choices of billionaires. If you accept an empirical view of the universe, no matter what you do, you will eventually die. Your experiences of the world will cease to exist. Therefore, the only rational investment would be in life extension technologies (SENS, advanced prosthesis, etc.). At first, this might sound repulsive. The idea of a group of elites discovering and hoard…

That might seem rational, until you ask how far away effective life extension technologies might be. If you are a 75-year-old billionaire, those technologies would have to be really close over the horizon. So it probably looks like a non-option to many.

Re: The world’s rich stay rich while the poor struggle to prosper

#19
post #12

I've always been baffled by the investment choices of billionaires. If you accept an empirical view of the universe, no matter what you do, you will eventually die. Your experiences of the world will cease to exist. Therefore, the only rational investment would be in life extension technologies (SENS, advanced prosthesis, etc.). At first, this might sound repulsive. The idea of a group of elites discovering and hoard…

"Your experiences of the world will cease to exist. Therefore, the only rational investment would be in life extension technologies (SENS, advanced prosthesis, etc.)."

No. You make a false assumption that everyone's main goal in to live as long as possible. Different people have different goals, and Gates clearly cares about making a major impact on other people.

Re: The world’s rich stay rich while the poor struggle to prosper

#20

People like this grind my gears. Many things go into being rich, but the top of that list is making more money than you give away. Practically by definition, people who continue to do this will continue to get rich. There is no shortage of humanitarian efforts, funds, and foundations started by the wealthy for the sake of the underprivileged. To suggest these are insufficient because their founders remain wealthy is…

From the original post, emphasis mine

"The major part of my book... was devoted to descriptions of the economic and social institutions that enable some countries to operate near the technological frontier. The failure to establish such institutions, or to operate them effectively, condemns most of the world to levels of productivity and living standards far below what is possible with existing knowledge and techniques. That subject should interest you"

There's nothing about funds and foundations being insufficient because their founders remain wealthy. He's explicitly saying the opposite: that in many countries with plenty of foreign cash flowing in most people will remain poor and very limited in their opportunities to change that due to inadequate institutions, even if they have access to the mobile telephones and antibiotics their parents didn't and shinier public buildings in the capital city. Gates points to oil-rich Gabon's per capita incomes being "nearly" where the US was in the 1960s, but in 1960 the average American had access to running water and had a life expectancy significantly higher than 55... Gabon might have the income of a "middle-income" country but a large proportion of the population lives in exactly the same way as people in a nearby very poor countries. The problem here is that even though there's enough oil money going into Gabon to ensure the average person has an adequate standard of living, that money is so badly distributed there's a fair chance that Bill will have to chip in for people in Gabon to have malaria nets and HIV tests.

In reality, I think they're talking past each other and would probably end up on agreeing on most points that actually matter: I don't think Gates brought up book titles to ridicule the idea that reforms are necessary for poor countries to prosper, and I doubt Kay objects to Gates' current level of spending on malaria nets.

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