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Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

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Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#11
post #5

St. Louis is cheap, but it's cheap for a reason. If you think 6th and Market is bad, take a stroll through East St. Louis. It has the 3rd highest murder rate in the country. Violent crime is on the rise. [1] Basically, it's one of the most dangerous cities in the country. If that sort of thing doesn't bother you, then you'd probably be better off just moving your startup to Oakland and maintaining a connection to the…

Having grown up in St. Louis, I will say that the statistics about violence are highly skewed. Yes, the rates of violent crime in East/North St. Louis are extremely high. However, it's not terribly difficult to avoid these areas (unless you're really into strip clubs). The suburbs and most of the rest of the city are no less safe than comparable areas in the bay area.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#12

Right now it is noon in St. Louis and 19 degrees. Right now it is 10:00 in SF and 53 degrees. I think weather plays a large part in why people like to live in the Bay Area. Many refer to the high cost of living here as the "sun tax." As I sit in my office wearing shorts and a t-shirt, I can't even fathom living in St. Louis.

"sun tax" is cheaper in Texas. It's zero as in 0% income tax.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#13
If you're looking for "San Francisco" feel, crowd, look, shops, and trendy neighborhoods in St. Louis. Go to the "Central West End" District. If there's one thing St. Louis can be proud of it's that district. That whole area from Forest Park (bigger than Central Park in New York) including the neighborhoods around it, Barnes Jewish Hospital, Children's Hospital Complex, GasLamp District, Central West End is really nice.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#14
post #9

> If you’re trying to bootstrap, being based in San Francisco is awful. Especially if you have a family. I rented a four bedroom house in a great neighborhood in Sacramento that was a bike ride from Midtown for $2900/mo. We ended up buying a bigger house in the same neighborhood for even less per month. No commute, food is cheap, etc. The cost savings are enormous, and I'm sure it's more expensive than St. Louis... Y…

I live in the Midwest. My monthly expenses are roughly half of your monthly rent. (And I have fiber coming into my house and can get 1 Gbps.)

Yeah, man. I'd move in a heartbeat if it weren't for family in the area.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#15

Right now it is noon in St. Louis and 19 degrees. Right now it is 10:00 in SF and 53 degrees. I think weather plays a large part in why people like to live in the Bay Area. Many refer to the high cost of living here as the "sun tax." As I sit in my office wearing shorts and a t-shirt, I can't even fathom living in St. Louis.

"sun tax" is cheaper in Texas. It's zero as in 0% income tax.

There is a hefty sun burn tax in Texas. 100 degree weather for sometimes 30 straight days. May - Sept are all 90 degrees+ without fail. The winter is colder than the bay area.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#16

Right now it is noon in St. Louis and 19 degrees. Right now it is 10:00 in SF and 53 degrees. I think weather plays a large part in why people like to live in the Bay Area. Many refer to the high cost of living here as the "sun tax." As I sit in my office wearing shorts and a t-shirt, I can't even fathom living in St. Louis.

New York and especially London are not exactly known for their sunny weather and yet have an housing market similar to that of SF...

I'm not saying it's not a factor, but I think there are more important ones.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#17
And so it begins. The Bay Area is starting to lose some of its talent to other areas (in an already tight talent market). This is just one example and I ran into a few others in the past 2 months, that are in a gtfo state. I have also tried to hire good people from other areas of the country that used to be interested in SF but are no longer seeing it as a nice place to actually live, because they too can do the math.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#18
The current San Francisco influx is unsustainable. If you're somewhere else in the world and thinking about coming here to do a startup, I wish I could convince you to change your mind.

San Francisco is incredibly expensive. Rents have shot up by ~50% since 2008, office space is following the same trend, and competition for (even mediocre) programmers is intense. Worse, a lot of the cultural diversity that made San Francisco interesting has been driven out by the high prices -- it's a much more homogenous city than a few years ago, where mom-and-pop shops and other neighborhood amenities have been replaced by places selling $10 "artisinal grilled cheese" sandwiches and "mixology" bars where you can buy your choice of $15 cocktail. SF feels increasingly like a city for wealthy yuppies, because...it is a city for wealthy yuppies. Living here on anything less than a good engineer's salary is becoming a tall order.

Which brings us to a very important point for all the young programmer dudes: when you all crowd into the same tiny city and bid up the rents into the stratosphere, your available dating pool shrinks to a puddle (yet another consequence of the skewed gender balance in tech. sigh.) All the pour-over coffee in the world doesn't make you happy when you can't get a date, and those artisan cocktails are far less cute when you're jockeying for position at the bar in a crowded room full of guys. If you're a 20-something male programmer looking for a date in SF, I feel badly for you. Hope you like BART, because you're going to Oakland (if you're lucky!)

Once upon a time it was only a mildly bad decision to locate your startup in San Francisco, but you could justify it with the appeal of a diverse, cosmopolitan city. Right now, there's a very real financial penalty (rents, salaries, taxes), and the cultural benefits are waning. There are a lot of great cities in the US, and on the internet, you can work from anywhere. Try those instead.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#19
post #16

Right now it is noon in St. Louis and 19 degrees. Right now it is 10:00 in SF and 53 degrees. I think weather plays a large part in why people like to live in the Bay Area. Many refer to the high cost of living here as the "sun tax." As I sit in my office wearing shorts and a t-shirt, I can't even fathom living in St. Louis.

New York and especially London are not exactly known for their sunny weather and yet have an housing market similar to that of SF... I'm not saying it's not a factor, but I think there are more important ones.

Yes. Other factors as well. I just said a large part... not the only or the largest. Another one is that you are not more than a couple hours from snow (assuming we're not having a drought like right now), the beach and the forest. I'm sure other places enjoy this diversity of nature as well... but we do have it pretty good here.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"sun tax" is cheaper in Texas. It's zero as in 0% income tax.

There is a hefty sun burn tax in Texas. 100 degree weather for sometimes 30 straight days. May - Sept are all 90 degrees+ without fail. The winter is colder than the bay area.

I lived in both states and the weather in the Bay Area isn't enough to justify the heavy income tax, sales tax and cost of housing. It's great that it's in the 60s and 70s year round but with zero rain fall you got other cons making up for pros in that category. Sure Texas is hot and that is a downside but agreeing that the weather in the Bay Area is worth an insane amount of extra cash isn't correct.
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