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Federating Do-It-Yourself ISPs from around the world

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Re: Federating Do-It-Yourself ISPs from around the world

#11

Post by dingaling »

mgbmtl wrote: post #8
farinasa wrote: post #4

Have always been curious about setting up an ISP. Especially so recently. I have been unsuccessful finding much information, though I haven't tried as hard as I probably could. Anyone have any good links?

From what I understand so far, the model they encourage is: - register a legal entity (coop, non-proft, corp, whatever) - register with IANA to get an ipv4 and ipv6 block - find an ISP who can do the BGP announcements for you (DSL resellers usually support it, even if for a residential connection) - use something like Quagga for routing, no need for big expensive routers - connect with whatever premises you want your…

> register with IANA to get an ipv4 and ipv6 block

Actually one has to register as a Local Internet Registry with the local monopoly RIR, such as ARIN or RIPE. Only they can request blocks from IANA, which they then allocate to LIRs in exchange for non-trivial membership fees.

Fees in the order of 3,000EUR to join and not much less on a recurring annual basis:

http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/become-a-mem...

Unfortunately since the ITU proposal for a non-geographic RIR faded some years ago there is no competition in this space, as the existing RIRs refuse to service cross-geography requests.

Re: Federating Do-It-Yourself ISPs from around the world

#12

Post by mgbmtl »

dingaling wrote: post #11
mgbmtl wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand so far, the model they encourage is: - register a legal entity (coop, non-proft, corp, whatever) - register with IANA to get an ipv4 and ipv6 block - find an ISP who can do the BGP announcements for you (DSL resellers usually support it, even if for a residential connection) - use something like Quagga for routing, no need for big expensive routers - connect with whatever premises you want your…

> register with IANA to get an ipv4 and ipv6 block Actually one has to register as a Local Internet Registry with the local monopoly RIR, such as ARIN or RIPE. Only they can request blocks from IANA, which they then allocate to LIRs in exchange for non-trivial membership fees. Fees in the order of 3,000EUR to join and not much less on a recurring annual basis: http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/become-a-…

Wow, that's crazy.. Afaik, last time I checked, it's cheaper when dealing with ARIN? i.e. for small orgs, 500$/year + fee per block?

(but indeed, I should have written "register with an RIR, such as ARIN/RIPE", instead of IANA.)

Re: Federating Do-It-Yourself ISPs from around the world

#13

Post by xhrpost »

dingaling wrote: post #11
mgbmtl wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand so far, the model they encourage is: - register a legal entity (coop, non-proft, corp, whatever) - register with IANA to get an ipv4 and ipv6 block - find an ISP who can do the BGP announcements for you (DSL resellers usually support it, even if for a residential connection) - use something like Quagga for routing, no need for big expensive routers - connect with whatever premises you want your…

> register with IANA to get an ipv4 and ipv6 block Actually one has to register as a Local Internet Registry with the local monopoly RIR, such as ARIN or RIPE. Only they can request blocks from IANA, which they then allocate to LIRs in exchange for non-trivial membership fees. Fees in the order of 3,000EUR to join and not much less on a recurring annual basis: http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/become-a-…

On top of it, the last I read, getting IP blocks from a RIR (even a decently supplied one like ARIN) is rather difficult as the IPv4 space continually dwindles. Also read that ARIN won't give you IPv6 space unless you first have assigned v4 space. Not sure if that's still true. I only read and research this stuff, haven't actually dealt with these entities myself. For a just starting out ISP, I think you'd be forced to lease IP's from your transit provider.

Re: Federating Do-It-Yourself ISPs from around the world

#14

Post by Udo »

At first, I thought this was encouraging. But then I checked out the 3 "providers" listed for my country (Germany). One is a club maintaining connectivity for a specific student housing project, one offers only dialup/ISDN, and finally only one offers actual ADSL connectivity. I'm sure it's the same in other countries.

While it's interesting as a concept, I don't really get the feeling there is much to see here. It's also not clear to me how these very few access providers would actually federate without real backbone connectivity.

Re: Federating Do-It-Yourself ISPs from around the world

#15

Post by nknighthb »

xhrpost wrote: post #13
dingaling wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> register with IANA to get an ipv4 and ipv6 block Actually one has to register as a Local Internet Registry with the local monopoly RIR, such as ARIN or RIPE. Only they can request blocks from IANA, which they then allocate to LIRs in exchange for non-trivial membership fees. Fees in the order of 3,000EUR to join and not much less on a recurring annual basis: http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/become-a-…

On top of it, the last I read, getting IP blocks from a RIR (even a decently supplied one like ARIN) is rather difficult as the IPv4 space continually dwindles. Also read that ARIN won't give you IPv6 space unless you first have assigned v4 space. Not sure if that's still true. I only read and research this stuff, haven't actually dealt with these entities myself. For a just starting out ISP, I think you'd be forced…

> Also read that ARIN won't give you IPv6 space unless you first have assigned v4 space.

You misread an "or" as an "and".

For end-users: https://www.arin.net/resources/request/ipv6_initial_assign.h...

"Meet one of the following requirements"

one of, not all of.

For ISPs/LIRs: https://www.arin.net/resources/request/ipv6_initial_alloc.ht...

Each criteria is followed by "or"

Re: Federating Do-It-Yourself ISPs from around the world

#16

Post by AlterSid »

Udo wrote: post #14

At first, I thought this was encouraging. But then I checked out the 3 "providers" listed for my country (Germany). One is a club maintaining connectivity for a specific student housing project, one offers only dialup/ISDN, and finally only one offers actual ADSL connectivity. I'm sure it's the same in other countries. While it's interesting as a concept, I don't really get the feeling there is much to see here. It's…

In Belgium, we are in the process of setting up an associative ISP, the road is long, but we have already started "formallly" to investigate technical solutions for vdsl lines, radio/wifi links; procurement of server, uplink, datacenter.. We have just passed a milestone which was to set up the legal entity supporting our diy isp.

You are right to point out that there is still a lot of work to be done, but this is a step in the right direction imho.

The idea behind this federation at this point is more to advertise the status of the various projects, and connect people together to share expertise (legal and hands-on).

Re: Federating Do-It-Yourself ISPs from around the world

#17

Post by Udo »

AlterSid wrote: post #16
Udo wrote: post #14

At first, I thought this was encouraging. But then I checked out the 3 "providers" listed for my country (Germany). One is a club maintaining connectivity for a specific student housing project, one offers only dialup/ISDN, and finally only one offers actual ADSL connectivity. I'm sure it's the same in other countries. While it's interesting as a concept, I don't really get the feeling there is much to see here. It's…

In Belgium, we are in the process of setting up an associative ISP, the road is long, but we have already started "formallly" to investigate technical solutions for vdsl lines, radio/wifi links; procurement of server, uplink, datacenter.. We have just passed a milestone which was to set up the legal entity supporting our diy isp. You are right to point out that there is still a lot of work to be done, but this is a s…

> but this is a step in the right direction imho.

It absolutely is, yes. What you're doing is admirable.

> The idea behind this federation at this point is more to advertise the status of the various projects

Ah, alright then. My first association was there'd by an effort to extricate yourself from the all-pervading surveillance, censoring, and traffic-shaping planned or already taking place. Of course, setting up an organization for knowledge sharing is also a worthy cause.

Re: Federating Do-It-Yourself ISPs from around the world

#18

Post by morphle »

Udo wrote: post #14

At first, I thought this was encouraging. But then I checked out the 3 "providers" listed for my country (Germany). One is a club maintaining connectivity for a specific student housing project, one offers only dialup/ISDN, and finally only one offers actual ADSL connectivity. I'm sure it's the same in other countries. While it's interesting as a concept, I don't really get the feeling there is much to see here. It's…

We have a foundation that is setting up a federation of co-operatives of Neighborhood ISP's that will offer professional, secure and anonymous fiber to the home and farm internet at speeds of 1 Gbps, 10 Gbps up to 80 Gbps. We invite everyone who wants to participate or start their own ISP with our help. We currently have more then 1000 km of backbone on three continents for everyone to hook up their DIY ISP at cost price. We can also set up new backbones in other area's. We produce our own open source hardware switches and routers with fiber, copper ethernet and wifi. You can reach us at aart at knoware dot nl We will provide courses, tools and investment for anyone willing to attempt to built an ISP, provide privacy protection is your intent. I started the first public internet provider in my country, to indicate that have some experience.

Re: Federating Do-It-Yourself ISPs from around the world

#19

Post by morphle »

farinasa wrote: post #4

Have always been curious about setting up an ISP. Especially so recently. I have been unsuccessful finding much information, though I haven't tried as hard as I probably could. Anyone have any good links?

I am willing to point you to all the information and skills needed. Or teach you those skills. See my earlier comment above.

Re: Federating Do-It-Yourself ISPs from around the world

#20

Post by xhrpost »

nknighthb wrote: post #15
xhrpost wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On top of it, the last I read, getting IP blocks from a RIR (even a decently supplied one like ARIN) is rather difficult as the IPv4 space continually dwindles. Also read that ARIN won't give you IPv6 space unless you first have assigned v4 space. Not sure if that's still true. I only read and research this stuff, haven't actually dealt with these entities myself. For a just starting out ISP, I think you'd be forced…

> Also read that ARIN won't give you IPv6 space unless you first have assigned v4 space. You misread an "or" as an "and". For end-users: https://www.arin.net/resources/request/ipv6_initial_assign.h... "Meet one of the following requirements" one of , not all of. For ISPs/LIRs: https://www.arin.net/resources/request/ipv6_initial_alloc.ht... Each criteria is followed by " or "

OK, I was referencing some older info: http://lowendtalk.com/discussion/2339/arin-stupid-policies
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