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India creating new identity card system for 1.2Bn people

economist.com

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Re: India creating new identity card system for 1.2Bn people

#11

Post by rmanocha »

GeneralMaximus wrote: post #10
rams wrote: post #8

I had predicted here ( http://cycle-gap.blogspot.com/2009/06/all-honourable-men.htm... ): "As the good old days of inflated head counts and billing rates comes to an end for Indian outsourcing companies, the big outsourcing companies will bid for, and push for huge local government projects." It's amazing how uncritically such huge projects are treated by the press in India - privacy issues, potential conflict of int…

I don't really see how this is a bad thing. The government will not use these cards to track you or anything. It's just a universal ID card. Proving that you exist is a big problem back here, mostly because everyone has their own definition of "proof of identity". If one universal proof of identity exists, you can just show the middle finger to anybody who makes you jump through bureaucratic hoops.

The ID in and of itself is not a bad thing. However, there needs to be a full and thorough discussion of the issues such as privacy, duplication, theft etc. From what I can see, this scheme seems similar to SSN's in the US, and using them as an example, you can easily see how the aforementioned issues can come into play. IMO, there needs to be a rigorous debate in the media about this scheme and also a detailed explanation from the government on how they plan to address these concerns.

Re: India creating new identity card system for 1.2Bn people

#12

Post by seshagiric »

rams wrote: post #8

I had predicted here ( http://cycle-gap.blogspot.com/2009/06/all-honourable-men.htm... ): "As the good old days of inflated head counts and billing rates comes to an end for Indian outsourcing companies, the big outsourcing companies will bid for, and push for huge local government projects." It's amazing how uncritically such huge projects are treated by the press in India - privacy issues, potential conflict of int…

Nilekani is the current CEO of Infosys. He has already stated he is going to step down from Infosys before taking up the effort to create an India wide UID. Bidding for this mega project will be an international one, with some Israeli companies already showing interest (in addition to Indian majors like Infosys, TCS, Wipro...).

So the question is not as much as about conflict of interest as it is about the success of the project. This will be the third such attempt - Seshan's voter ID, the PAN card and now the UID.

From anti-corruption point of view, this is really going to be helpful. Any government aid etc can be tracked using the UID (i.e. to see who the beneficiary was). Currently a majority of such funds are eaten up by the politicians and bureaucrats. So perhaps that will get reduced. As a state, India is currently a failure: perhaps the UID will help make some ammends.

The implementation is going to be a challenge - currently there are options that are doing rounds: a smart card approach or using a mobile sim card (a govt reserved security domain in every sim card - the sim ID can act as a proxy for UID).

Re: India creating new identity card system for 1.2Bn people

#13

Post by seshagiric »

dkarl wrote: post #6
pmorici wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious which countries your are thinking of where government corruption is not a problem?

In the US, citizens don't have to pay bribes, perhaps with the exception of getting government business. You don't have to pay bribes to get a marriage license, get a crime investigated, get your garbage collected, get fair treatment in court, or get your child admitted to a good school. Larger-scale, more obscure corruption thrives. Everybody knows that most political campaign contributions are made with the expect…

It is not just the basic facilities. Corruption hits in a lot of other ways also.

The traffic sucks because most traffic police are jerking off somewhere. If you want to get something done (e.g. setup a business) you should know someone with influence. A new risk in big cities is if you own a land there is a risk of the property being forcibly occupied by a thug and the police wouldn't do much.

Re: India creating new identity card system for 1.2Bn people

#14

Post by jyothi »

rmanocha wrote: post #11
GeneralMaximus wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really see how this is a bad thing. The government will not use these cards to track you or anything. It's just a universal ID card. Proving that you exist is a big problem back here, mostly because everyone has their own definition of "proof of identity". If one universal proof of identity exists, you can just show the middle finger to anybody who makes you jump through bureaucratic hoops.

The ID in and of itself is not a bad thing. However, there needs to be a full and thorough discussion of the issues such as privacy, duplication, theft etc. From what I can see, this scheme seems similar to SSN's in the US, and using them as an example, you can easily see how the aforementioned issues can come into play. IMO, there needs to be a rigorous debate in the media about this scheme and also a detailed expla…

Knowing what Indian Media is like I would rather not want this to be debated. Given Nilekani is heading it and the fact that the government is actively working to bring in any relevant person or advise I would assume they would do a good job of analysis the pros and cons and the feasibility of it in a country like India.

Things have to start - we cannot keep debating. I understand revising or doing it again is costly in India. But whatever the current investment into this pays of in just one use of this - ensuring the facilities are not misused. I bet there is more money people are shelling out in bribes as a whole to misuse than what is required to prevent it. One investment of govt I would not complain about even if I have to pay a nominal fee for it or raise funds.

Re: India creating new identity card system for 1.2Bn people

#15

Post by jyothi »

rams wrote: post #8

I had predicted here ( http://cycle-gap.blogspot.com/2009/06/all-honourable-men.htm... ): "As the good old days of inflated head counts and billing rates comes to an end for Indian outsourcing companies, the big outsourcing companies will bid for, and push for huge local government projects." It's amazing how uncritically such huge projects are treated by the press in India - privacy issues, potential conflict of int…

And you have quoted Nilekani, what more would do you expect. You need to appreciate he is taking this up giving up a definitely more profitable & less frustrating job of heading an IT major.

Given this is not a no-brainer job and involves utilizing technology efficiently whoever would fit the bill would have some past associations which might conflict. And real business people know how to keep them separate.

And for the meta issues I would believe the team responsible are more informed & concerned of it than any of us would be.

Media in India is wrongly influencing us to doubt everything and vehemently debate every issue as if we are the experts in that area. I agree to some extent it is necessary to question to control corruption and such. Doing it just for the sake of TRP is bad for the country than the question being raised.

Re: India creating new identity card system for 1.2Bn people

#16

Post by swaroop »

rams wrote: post #8

I had predicted here ( http://cycle-gap.blogspot.com/2009/06/all-honourable-men.htm... ): "As the good old days of inflated head counts and billing rates comes to an end for Indian outsourcing companies, the big outsourcing companies will bid for, and push for huge local government projects." It's amazing how uncritically such huge projects are treated by the press in India - privacy issues, potential conflict of int…

There has to be good balance and checks introduced in the system. Perhaps even make it open source, after all it is a public work. This way, there will be no room for problems such as voting machines rigging ( http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/jul/04/was-election-2009-... )

I don't consider open source to be a panacea but w.r.t. government programs, I think it is an option that should be actively considered.

Re: India creating new identity card system for 1.2Bn people

#17

Post by patio11 »

dkarl wrote: post #6
pmorici wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious which countries your are thinking of where government corruption is not a problem?

In the US, citizens don't have to pay bribes, perhaps with the exception of getting government business. You don't have to pay bribes to get a marriage license, get a crime investigated, get your garbage collected, get fair treatment in court, or get your child admitted to a good school. Larger-scale, more obscure corruption thrives. Everybody knows that most political campaign contributions are made with the expect…

Just as important as the factual lack of pervasive bribery is the lack of the expectation of pervasive bribery.

I took a group of Indian engineers to the immigration office (Japan) to get some paperwork done, once. The particular type of paperwork they needed has a $40 filing fee.

"So Patrick, how much does [the paperwork] cost?"

"There is a [$40] filing fee."

"Right, and how much will the clerk want? Maybe I should ask for it instead of you. I can pretend to be a poor Indian, you are wearing a business suit so he'll surely want more."

My mind vapor locked for about half a minute there. I mean, you know in a theoretical sense that bribery happens in Western democracies, but you certainly don't expect it to ever hit your daily life. I grew up in Chicago, which is about as corrupt as America gets, and the notion of paying extra for e.g. a driver's license a) wouldn't occur to me to try and b) would bring down an administration if it were discovered (it has in Illinois).

Incidentally, the Japanese immigration office doesn't take money directly for the forms. You go over to someone who sells revenue stamps, buy a stamp, and affix it to your form. This is a brilliant centuries-old hack design specifically to make corruption difficult -- because money doesn't normally change hands between the applicant and person with decisionmaking authority, there is no opportunity for the clerk to pocket the fees and there is no chance that "a little extra" on top of the fees would go unnoticed.

Re: India creating new identity card system for 1.2Bn people

#18

Post by gaius »

jyothi wrote: post #15
rams wrote: post #8

I had predicted here ( http://cycle-gap.blogspot.com/2009/06/all-honourable-men.htm... ): "As the good old days of inflated head counts and billing rates comes to an end for Indian outsourcing companies, the big outsourcing companies will bid for, and push for huge local government projects." It's amazing how uncritically such huge projects are treated by the press in India - privacy issues, potential conflict of int…

And you have quoted Nilekani, what more would do you expect. You need to appreciate he is taking this up giving up a definitely more profitable & less frustrating job of heading an IT major. Given this is not a no-brainer job and involves utilizing technology efficiently whoever would fit the bill would have some past associations which might conflict. And real business people know how to keep them separate. And for…

The notion of profit depends entirely on what you're trying to achieve.

In this case, perhaps it's political power without the tedium of going to the polls... EU style.

Re: India creating new identity card system for 1.2Bn people

#20

Post by kailashbadu »

seshagiric wrote: post #12
rams wrote: post #8

I had predicted here ( http://cycle-gap.blogspot.com/2009/06/all-honourable-men.htm... ): "As the good old days of inflated head counts and billing rates comes to an end for Indian outsourcing companies, the big outsourcing companies will bid for, and push for huge local government projects." It's amazing how uncritically such huge projects are treated by the press in India - privacy issues, potential conflict of int…

Nilekani is the current CEO of Infosys. He has already stated he is going to step down from Infosys before taking up the effort to create an India wide UID. Bidding for this mega project will be an international one, with some Israeli companies already showing interest (in addition to Indian majors like Infosys, TCS, Wipro...). So the question is not as much as about conflict of interest as it is about the success of…

Actually he has long stepped down as a CEO of Infosys. He, however, continued to wield the title of co-chairman until now.
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