Government Chemist Tampered With 40,000 Cases • Hacker News Board

Re: Government Chemist Tampered With 40,000 Cases

#11

Post by whiddershins » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 9:39 PM UTC

How hard would it have been to insert a random cross check in to the system? So every 300 tests, the sample is retested by another lab?

There's no motivation or incentive whatsoever to structure the process to decrease convictions, that is one of the unspoken but defining features of our legal system.

There is an ideal that two sides are arguing something in a neutral setting, but one side is the government, and literally everyone who should be acting impartially is also employed by the same government. How can that create a balanced process?

Only in a naive and delusional imaginary world.

Re: Government Chemist Tampered With 40,000 Cases

#12

Post by alexeisadeski3 » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 9:41 PM UTC

computer wrote: post #10

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #4

Those convicted should be released pending retrial immediately.

All 190,000 of them?

If that's the true number, then yes, absolutely.

Re: Government Chemist Tampered With 40,000 Cases

#13

Post by sigstoat » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 9:42 PM UTC

pasbesoin wrote: post #2

So, it appears that evidence processing has something akin to zero controls and (effective) auditing? Where prosecutors either knew of or had strong reason to suspect this misbehavior, their immunity should be dissolved and they should be prosecuted. Their personal assets should also be subject to forfeiture for compensation.

well, usually the state government has some body which certifies these labs. that works for shit (see colorado).

the only real audit is defendants having the evidence retested by their own experts. reputable privately operated laboratories doing this sort of testing for forensic purposes do exist.

Re: Government Chemist Tampered With 40,000 Cases

#14

Post by gaius » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 9:42 PM UTC

sentenza wrote: post #9

ics wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have mixed feelings about jail terms in general, but I agree– this is precisely the sort of crime I would imagine carrying a life sentence. The number of cases affected & lives disrupted here is hardly fathomable.

What is the punishment for helping somebody to hold a person captive in their basement? The sentence should be that times sixhundred (how many wrongful convictions she caused, number might rise yet).

The sum of those 40000 sentences.

Re: Government Chemist Tampered With 40,000 Cases

#15

Post by Shivetya » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 9:42 PM UTC

computer wrote: post #10

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #4

Those convicted should be released pending retrial immediately.

All 190,000 of them?

they do deserve a new trial.

if their offense was not sufficient to warrant holding in jail before the trial I think they should be let out on ankle bracelets or such.

The simple matter here is, the evidence was faulty. Hopefully no prosecutors were in on it, but if the evidence was used to convict then any conviction is suspect.

Numbers don't matter when justice is determined. The government should have better means to validate its employees are doing what they are supposed to do.

I would have liked to seen the Chemist sentenced to life, or at least the cumulative number of years of all sentences with tampered evidence.

Re: Government Chemist Tampered With 40,000 Cases

#16

Post by interstitial » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 9:44 PM UTC

whiddershins wrote: post #11

How hard would it have been to insert a random cross check in to the system? So every 300 tests, the sample is retested by another lab? There's no motivation or incentive whatsoever to structure the process to decrease convictions, that is one of the unspoken but defining features of our legal system. There is an ideal that two sides are arguing something in a neutral setting, but one side is the government, and lite…

Add some "parallel discovery" courtesy of the NSA and you've got a recipe for tyranny.

Re: Government Chemist Tampered With 40,000 Cases

#17

Post by sigstoat » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 9:46 PM UTC

whiddershins wrote: post #11

How hard would it have been to insert a random cross check in to the system? So every 300 tests, the sample is retested by another lab? There's no motivation or incentive whatsoever to structure the process to decrease convictions, that is one of the unspoken but defining features of our legal system. There is an ideal that two sides are arguing something in a neutral setting, but one side is the government, and lite…

> How hard would it have been to insert a random cross check in to the system? So every 300 tests, the sample is retested by another lab?

the states are barely willing to pay for this sort of testing in the first place, let alone having it performed repeatedly.

defendants are generally able to get the evidence retested themselves. very hand wavily, that sort of thing will tend to cost $100-$1000.

Re: Government Chemist Tampered With 40,000 Cases

#18

Post by jjoonathan » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 9:49 PM UTC

ics wrote: post #8

jjoonathan wrote: post #6

3-5 years?! THREE TO FIVE YEARS???!!! There are no words. Agents of the law need to be held more accountable for their actions than your average citizen, not less. This is disgusting.

I have mixed feelings about jail terms in general, but I agree– this is precisely the sort of crime I would imagine carrying a life sentence. The number of cases affected & lives disrupted here is hardly fathomable.

Me too re: jail times, but since being "hard on crime" is the politically convenient position for politicians, why not be hard on the right kinds of crime?

What's worse is that the system didn't detect the problem for such a long time. Why isn't laboratory analysis blinded? We already spend truckloads of money funding an elaborate appeals process, why isn't there a check on lab analysis? With the drug industry imploding, chemists (real chemists) are struggling to find work, so they could even call it a jobs program if need be.

How can a voter rock the boat over an issue so far down on the political issue list?

Re: Government Chemist Tampered With 40,000 Cases

#19

Post by DanBC » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 9:51 PM UTC

computer wrote: post #10

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #4

Those convicted should be released pending retrial immediately.

All 190,000 of them?

How many of those 190,000 pose a risk of harm to other people? How many of them were violent, or sexual[1], offenders?

[1] Laws are different in different places, but here I'm talking about actual sex offences, not things like public urination. (Which is gross, but usually not a sexual offence).

Re: Government Chemist Tampered With 40,000 Cases

#20

Post by msandford » Sun, Dec 01, 2013, 9:52 PM UTC

sentenza wrote: post #9

ics wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have mixed feelings about jail terms in general, but I agree– this is precisely the sort of crime I would imagine carrying a life sentence. The number of cases affected & lives disrupted here is hardly fathomable.

What is the punishment for helping somebody to hold a person captive in their basement? The sentence should be that times sixhundred (how many wrongful convictions she caused, number might rise yet).

Honestly I think this is a situation where the death penalty is entirely appropriate. I don't like the idea of more suffering when there is already plenty to go around here, but I can't see how you can call it "justice" if she is allowed to live. An example must be set that this kind of thing is so repugnant to civilized societies that it WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.

EDIT: The scale of her crimes is thousands of person-years of human life in jail. Some of them probably deserved it, others probably didn't. There is a serious asymmetry here, she has only 50-100 years that she can be imprisoned and that's not a strong enough message to people in the government who would think about doing the same to further their own careers as well.