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LED street lighting the newest challenge to old utility business models

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Re: LED street lighting the newest challenge to old utility business models

#11

Post by Aloha »

I call BS on this:

"But in most cities around the country, the local electric distribution company provides overhead street lighting as a basic service at a flat monthly rate per light, which includes the light itself, maintenance, and electricity. Therein lies the rub—regulated utilities often have little incentive to invest in more efficient streetlights, which offer a reliable, consistent, and often lucrative revenue stream that comes at a time of day (or night) when demand is low."

If their getting a fixed rate, LED's would be quite profitable for them due to lower servicing costs, and lower power consumption - meaning for that fixed rate, they take in more income.

Beyond that, in many cities - running and maintaining the streetlights is included in the franchise rights to sell power in a given city - meaning to sell power, the power company had to install and pays for the lights.

Re: LED street lighting the newest challenge to old utility business models

#12

Post by girvo »

Aloha wrote: post #11

I call BS on this: "But in most cities around the country, the local electric distribution company provides overhead street lighting as a basic service at a flat monthly rate per light, which includes the light itself, maintenance, and electricity. Therein lies the rub—regulated utilities often have little incentive to invest in more efficient streetlights, which offer a reliable, consistent, and often lucrative reve…

They cover that in a later paragraph: changing that means they go back to the community and renegotiate that flat rate, eating up any cost savings that the utility would turn into profit.

Re: LED street lighting the newest challenge to old utility business models

#13

Post by abduhl »

Tyr42 wrote: post #10
abduhl wrote: post #8

An interesting con to this LED lighting movement is that I have heard from a few CDOT engineers that the new LED lights do not put out enough heat to melt through snow that accumulates during storms and this has caused issues for traffic lighting. This is all second hand, of course.

Check out http://ledsmagazine.com/features/2/5/8 It says that: The energy consumed by a 100-watt GLS incandescent bulb produces around 12% heat, 83% IR and only 5% visible light. In contrast, a typical LED might produce 15% visible light and 85% heat. You can't always put a LED light in a enclosed fixture, as it might even overheat. It needs some air flow to cool it's heat sinks.

The question is a matter of power then. A 100W bulb at 5% light is 5W of light (assuming power vs energy can be compared this way... I don't do electrical engineering) which would correspond to a 35W LED producing less than one half of the heat when you consider that snow piling up in front of a light and the light enclosure will convert the IR to heat.

Re: LED street lighting the newest challenge to old utility business models

#14

Post by abduhl »

tghw wrote: post #9
abduhl wrote: post #8

An interesting con to this LED lighting movement is that I have heard from a few CDOT engineers that the new LED lights do not put out enough heat to melt through snow that accumulates during storms and this has caused issues for traffic lighting. This is all second hand, of course.

Heat coils are very simple, as are thermostats. They could be added very easily to run when it's cold enough out that it would be helpful.

And try to get a contractor to put them in out of the goodness of their heart or go through a rigorous study to prove equal compliance with federal and state regulations? Surely you jest.

Re: LED street lighting the newest challenge to old utility business models

#15

Post by BIair »

I wonder what percentage of street lights actually have activity below them? What about a motion sensing light that has dual-brightness levels? A lower level when no pedestrian or car activity is detected, and a brighter level when it is. Not only would this save energy, and look very cool when a car drives down a deserted street as lights brighten in advance of it, but it could enhance security as late night prowlers would have attention attracted to them by neighbors and police.

Re: LED street lighting the newest challenge to old utility business models

#16

Post by tghw »

abduhl wrote: post #14
tghw wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heat coils are very simple, as are thermostats. They could be added very easily to run when it's cold enough out that it would be helpful.

And try to get a contractor to put them in out of the goodness of their heart or go through a rigorous study to prove equal compliance with federal and state regulations? Surely you jest.

They could be built as a part of the light, since we're changing all of that out anyway. Really not that hard.

Also, contractors shouldn't be studying compliance for new things. And you would pay them as you're installing the new lights. So not out of the "goodness of their heart" either. In fact, I have no idea what you're trying to get at here.

Re: LED street lighting the newest challenge to old utility business models

#17

Post by abduhl »

tghw wrote: post #16
abduhl wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And try to get a contractor to put them in out of the goodness of their heart or go through a rigorous study to prove equal compliance with federal and state regulations? Surely you jest.

They could be built as a part of the light, since we're changing all of that out anyway. Really not that hard. Also, contractors shouldn't be studying compliance for new things. And you would pay them as you're installing the new lights. So not out of the "goodness of their heart" either. In fact, I have no idea what you're trying to get at here.

Most items installed on a transportation project must meet the standard specifications for the state which generally incorporates federal requirements as needed. Anything installed must be "per spec" and manufacturers or contractors installed items that are not per spec can be grounds for a refusal of payment or refusal of acceptance.

Specifications compliance is solely the responsibility of the contractor (who generally passes it on to the manufacturer).

In order to install your lighting the contractor would have to prove specification compliance, include the additional cost of the lights, and still win the low-bid process that almost all state and federal transportation projects are subject to. Alternatively, the contractor could win the project without the new lights and then come back with a value-added change order and these are not uncommon in my experience.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's a good idea, it just isn't feasible in the field in my opinion.

Re: LED street lighting the newest challenge to old utility business models

#18

Post by InclinedPlane »

BIair wrote: post #15

I wonder what percentage of street lights actually have activity below them? What about a motion sensing light that has dual-brightness levels? A lower level when no pedestrian or car activity is detected, and a brighter level when it is. Not only would this save energy, and look very cool when a car drives down a deserted street as lights brighten in advance of it, but it could enhance security as late night prowler…

Those already exist.

Re: LED street lighting the newest challenge to old utility business models

#20

Post by GigabyteCoin »

tghw wrote: post #9
abduhl wrote: post #8

An interesting con to this LED lighting movement is that I have heard from a few CDOT engineers that the new LED lights do not put out enough heat to melt through snow that accumulates during storms and this has caused issues for traffic lighting. This is all second hand, of course.

Heat coils are very simple, as are thermostats. They could be added very easily to run when it's cold enough out that it would be helpful.

A simple light sensing trigger (coupled with a timer) would do the trick.

Light should be on but see no light and it's winter time? Turn on the heater.

Same situation in the summer? Send out a tech, the light's probably out.

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