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Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

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Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#11

Post by cobrausn »

drcube wrote: post #7

I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…

And what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education to seek greater opportunities? After all, the thought of perpetual poverty is a huge motivator. With that gone? Won't we see a higher divide between skilled and unskilled, rich and poor? I'm a bit skeptical about this supposed panacea that cures crime, disease, and teen pregnancy, all in one fell swoop.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#12

Post by megaman821 »

Retric wrote: post #2

I think a basic income is a decent idea but 583$ a month aka 10k - 3k for heath insurance seems rather low to replace things like disability checks especially if your removing all benefits for children. It's also not goig to satisfy people on social security who are getting checks for as much as 3,000$ a month.

I think this would have to be combined with universal healthcare. If basic income is enough to live on barring any medical issues, then universal healthcare would take care of the medical issues part.

As for social security, it would have to be slowly phased out. The people on it now and the still working have been paying into the system, and should at least get there money back plus interest.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#13

Post by sp332 »

peterdundi wrote: post #9

This is unpopular here, but I really believe that if you can't provide for yourself financially there is something seriously wrong with you, and I don't think treating you like a child is unreasonable. Beyond washing and feeding yourself, getting an income is pretty much adulthood 101.

Then why does unemployment fluctuate so much? Do you think the population just forgets how to make money occasionally?

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#14

Post by swalkergibson »

peterdundi wrote: post #9

This is unpopular here, but I really believe that if you can't provide for yourself financially there is something seriously wrong with you, and I don't think treating you like a child is unreasonable. Beyond washing and feeding yourself, getting an income is pretty much adulthood 101.

If someone has something seriously wrong with them, do you believe that degrading them further by "treating them like children" is going to effect the outcome you desire?

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#15

Post by [deleted] »

peterdundi wrote: post #10
drcube wrote: post #7

I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…

"Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions" Why should they be free to make their own decision about how they spend MY money?

[deleted]

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#16

Post by vidarh »

saosebastiao wrote: post #3

Some libertarians may not be fans of a guaranteed or basic income because such a system would, they argue, disincentivize work. Murray believes that his surtax scheme would incentivize work after someone began earning over $25,000. I'm fairly libertarian and also agree with the concept of a basic income or negative income tax, but phrases like this are very dangerous. It would only begin incentivizing work after you…

> There is a reason people get a little squeamish about proposals to just give poor people money...we all know what it does to us.

Except we don't. We think we do. And even then, we only have a rough idea what each one of us personally might do. Yet when there have actually been experiments, people don't tend to act in line with these expectations.

> You have to be much more careful and empirical than that.

Exactly. And the (to be fair: very little) data we have so far does not support the notion that people in general won't work hard if they're paid for nothing. Some won't. Others see it as their opportunity to build something. A lot of others simply don't change their behaviour all that much.

Maybe you'd party all the time. For others, social safety nets is what makes doing something greatly useful with their time low risk enough for them to dare do it. E.g. my own example is the opposite of yours: I've never a day in my life seen poverty or homelessness as a possibility, and for me that is a large part of what has made doing startup after startup viable, because I want to do something fun and challenging. The possibility of a big payout is great, but that's a gamble with poor odds.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#17

Post by peterdundi »

sp332 wrote: post #13
peterdundi wrote: post #9

This is unpopular here, but I really believe that if you can't provide for yourself financially there is something seriously wrong with you, and I don't think treating you like a child is unreasonable. Beyond washing and feeding yourself, getting an income is pretty much adulthood 101.

Then why does unemployment fluctuate so much? Do you think the population just forgets how to make money occasionally?

When unemployment fluctuates the bar for earning money is fluctuating. If you're the kind of person who is near that bar you need to take a good hard look at yourself.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#18

Post by tghw »

peterdundi wrote: post #10
drcube wrote: post #7

I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…

"Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions" Why should they be free to make their own decision about how they spend MY money?

Because the alternative is telling people how to spend it, which will be a less efficient use of that money. We already see this with food stamps and housing vouchers. There are many cases where someone has food stamps, but doesn't have trouble buying food, and so has left over food stamps at the end of the month. Yet they can't afford housing, because you can't pay rent with food stamps.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#19

Post by megaman821 »

peterdundi wrote: post #10
drcube wrote: post #7

I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…

"Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions" Why should they be free to make their own decision about how they spend MY money?

Even if you don't believe they should be free to make their own economic decisions. Do you really want 20-50% of YOUR money to be eaten up by administrative costs? Why is the current incomprehensible complex system better than a simple one?

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#20

Post by drcube »

cobrausn wrote: post #11
drcube wrote: post #7

I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…

And what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education to seek greater opportunities? After all, the thought of perpetual poverty is a huge motivator. With that gone? Won't we see a higher divide between skilled and unskilled, rich and poor? I'm a bit skeptical about this supposed panacea that cures crime, disease, and teen pregnancy, all in one fell swoop.

Poverty is a huge cause of crime, disease, teen pregnancy, and poor educational outcomes. Do you disagree?

And if someone refuses to get an education or better themselves when given the opportunity, are they somebody you'd like to hire for your company? Better to keep them placated with some minimum of food and shelter so they don't rob you, and save the jobs for the people who want them and will execute to your satisfaction.

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