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The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

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Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#11
post #7

I think this is part of a general de-arabization trend which followed the crumbling of the Ottoman empire, as many words would naturally have been transliterated with a q (which would be ق in the Arabic script, which was used in Ottoman Turkish). I have heard that for many years it was illegal to name a son Muhammad in Turkey - you could only use the "Turkified" version Mehmed or Mehmet.

Are you kidding me? "Muhammad" was never illegal in Turkey. Show evidence of prohibited.

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#12
post #4

Actually it was never illegal in Turkey. Q, W, X just not allowed to be used in people/company names because they're not in Turkish alphabet. I think this news mislead by AKP as usual.

Every reference I've found claims that the relevant law made the use of the Turkish alphabet compulsory in all public communication.

E.g. "Minorities and Nationalism in Turkish Law", by Derya Bayir repeats the claim that the Law on the Turkish Alphabet of 1928 "obliged the use of the Turkish alphabet", as part of a section describing legal decisions used to outlaw use of Kurdish and other languages in official communication, and that has also been used to oust elected officials that have allowed use of other languages than Turkish.

In private there has been more flexibility, though until recently, everything I've found (including the book above) indicates there were strict restrictions on use by e.g. private businesses when communicating privately with customers too.

If you have references that contradicts the above mentioned book on these points, I'd love to see them.

EDIT: While the Google Translate translation of the text of the law itself here is atrocious at best, it does seem to also support the linked article: http://www.idealhukuk.com/hukuk/hukuk.asp?mct=mevzuatdetay&x...

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#14
post #7

I think this is part of a general de-arabization trend which followed the crumbling of the Ottoman empire, as many words would naturally have been transliterated with a q (which would be ق in the Arabic script, which was used in Ottoman Turkish). I have heard that for many years it was illegal to name a son Muhammad in Turkey - you could only use the "Turkified" version Mehmed or Mehmet.

That's probably part of it, but note that the articles point about e.g. Kurdish meshes well with decades of extensive cultural oppression of the Kurds and other minority groups in terms of outlawing teaching of their language, and even for a while outlawing the very name Kurd as well.

I used to know a Turkish journalist who was granted political asylum in Norway (one of many Turks who had to flee over issues like this) after repeated death-threats from the then-Turkish regime (early 90's) because he wrote articles about the situation of the Kurds.

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#15
post #3

The letter Q was never illegal in Turkey. It was just not allowed to be used in names of people/companies etc. due to the fact that it is not in Turkish alphabet. It is like letters ç,ğ,ü being illegal in US.

Have some Häagen-Dazs if you really think using "the wrong letters" is illegal in the US.

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#16
post #15
post #3

The letter Q was never illegal in Turkey. It was just not allowed to be used in names of people/companies etc. due to the fact that it is not in Turkish alphabet. It is like letters ç,ğ,ü being illegal in US.

Have some Häagen-Dazs if you really think using "the wrong letters" is illegal in the US.

I don't think using "the wrong letters" is illegal in the US. What I've meant was it is as wrong as claiming the usage of "the wrong letters" is illegal in the US.

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#17
post #12
post #4

Actually it was never illegal in Turkey. Q, W, X just not allowed to be used in people/company names because they're not in Turkish alphabet. I think this news mislead by AKP as usual.

Every reference I've found claims that the relevant law made the use of the Turkish alphabet compulsory in all public communication . E.g. "Minorities and Nationalism in Turkish Law", by Derya Bayir repeats the claim that the Law on the Turkish Alphabet of 1928 "obliged the use of the Turkish alphabet", as part of a section describing legal decisions used to outlaw use of Kurdish and other languages in official commu…

The legislation you gave shows Turkish alphabet and Q, W, X is not included in this alphabet. AFAIK, generally country laws only accepts people/company names in their alphabet.

Think that legislation like USA's alphabet. They didn't have Ğ, Ş, İ etc. in their alphabet so people/company names doesn't have these letters. Is that means Ğ, Ş, İ is forbidden? News like this for dramatize the status of kurds in Turkey :)

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#18
post #5

The Polish minority in Lithuania doesn't have the right to use the Polish orthography and/or letters of the Polish alphabet when writing their names. http://www.nouvelle-europe.eu/en/polish-national-minority-li...

... because allowing every minority or every individual to use their own alphabet would soon require the full unicode support everywhere, which is not a big deal, as well as that everyone else knows how to read/write it, which is a big deal.

Btw, I am also not allowed to use Cyrillic alphabet or latin "ć" here in Germany when filling out official forms, but I don't consider that my rights are somehow jeopardized because of that.

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#19
To put things in perspective, you really need to take a look at the past to appreciate modern Turkey. The Ottoman empire was ruled by Sultan's who wielded absolute power, much like the leaders of other Arab nations today. Prior to the Sultan's were the emperor's of the Holy Roman empire, who wielded power so absolute that even medieval Europeans would have found it unsettling. Much of the symbolism used by European royalty was copied wholesale from Constantinople in attempts to achieve a similar measure of control.

Ottoman society, like many Arab societies today, was heavily inclined towards absolute rule by "strong men". Where most of Europe gradually weaned itself off of absolute rulers by gradually limiting or subverting the power of monarchs over several generations, Turkey literally went from absolute rule to democracy in a single generation. Kemal was an officer during the first world war, which Turkey was on the wrong side of and wound up being partitioned by the allied forces. He played a huge role in reunifying Turkey through armed conflict that expelled the occupying forces. The last Ottoman Sultan was opposed to Kemal and called for his death, but the unification forces instead abolished the sultanate and declared a democracy. Kemal was held in such esteem that he was easily elected to lead this new democracy.

Here's where things get interesting... Kemal's revolution and declaration of democracy are hardly novel. Many nations have undergone similar transformations, and many of the newly elected leaders soon turn into despots. Cultures that favor "strong men" tend to encourage this. Kemal introduced reforms intended to westernize Turkey. Western dress, even hats, were heavily encouraged while his "Hat Law" banned turban's and fezzes (No, the doctor would not have been a fan of Ataturk!).

The new alphabet, seen in light of this wave of westernization, is particularly interesting. Ankara, Istanbul, and many other Turkish cities are full of monuments covered in arabic scrip proclaiming the awesomeness of various Sultan's. It's not unlike how Washington D.C.'s Lincoln memorial, etc., glorify the U.S. system of government, only the Ottoman empire had been accumulating such monuments for a lot longer. The Sultan's of the Ottoman empire lived in the shadow of Constantinople's emperors, so they tended to play themselves up rather a lot.

If you tour Turkey today, your university educated tour guides (practically every guide in Turkey has a degree or two) are extremely unlikely to be able to read a word of arabic script. The new alphabet effectively severed Turkish citizens from centuries of extremely high quality propaganda that the Ottoman empire had accumulated to support the sultanate's rule.

Kemal's legacy is not without it's dark spots, but the "strong man" culture of the Ottoman empire has largely abated. Obviously, it takes time, as people change slowly. Turkish citizens today are more likely to revere Kemal himself as they would a Sultan rather than their prime minister or president. The military has historically seen itself as the guardian of Ataturk's legacy, which has led to some truly unusual coups that, bizarrely enough, have probably kept Turkey on the course of democracy, although recently the power of the military has been gutted.

The Turkish alphabet might be interpreted by some as a form of oppression, but it's adoption was more about breaking with the past and embracing democracy and the west. Compared to it's Arab neighbors, Turkey is astoundingly western and unusually democratic.

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#20
post #12
post #4

Actually it was never illegal in Turkey. Q, W, X just not allowed to be used in people/company names because they're not in Turkish alphabet. I think this news mislead by AKP as usual.

Every reference I've found claims that the relevant law made the use of the Turkish alphabet compulsory in all public communication . E.g. "Minorities and Nationalism in Turkish Law", by Derya Bayir repeats the claim that the Law on the Turkish Alphabet of 1928 "obliged the use of the Turkish alphabet", as part of a section describing legal decisions used to outlaw use of Kurdish and other languages in official commu…

Let me give you another example of manipulation: https://twitter.com/AKGenclikGM/status/384629580226506753 - In this picture, they're wrote "Now, Q - W - X are free" in Turkish

Let's check English version of that: https://twitter.com/AKGenclikGM_en/status/384649333884588032 "Kurdish letters are now free"

..there is no ban for usage of Kurdish letters in public. As i said, because of Q, W, X letters are not in Turkish alphabet, they're just don't allowed to use these letters in names. They just added q - w - x to Turkish alphabet (btw think about it; USA changing their alphabet, adding another letters, i think general reaction would like "what") That's why they just write "q - w - x are free" in Turkish version. But in English version, sadly, they're saying kurds can't use their alphabets and they're dramatizing the status of kurds.

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