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What happens when a language has no numbers?

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Re: What happens when a language has no numbers?

#11

Oh Gawd... Read: http://web.mit.edu/linguistics/people/faculty/pesetsky/Nevin... Edit: and sure this is the Chomskians debunking the "upstart" Danial Everett but this is thorough, clear and convincing in contrast to the haphazard novelty that most Piraha discussion involves. A language with future? How...? Well, actually the answer would be just no, that's not how it works. And sure, this headline says "number" but a…

I don't now. I read it. It seems that given that most of the documentation of the language was done by Everett, the Chomskians have some difficulty getting around some points.

I found the discussions of anumeracy in that PDF quite problematic because they basically argued we don't know enough about the language to say one way or another. Some of the difficulties, particularly adding vs removing spoons posed significant interpretation problems for me. Of course if I was differentiate between a few spoons and a bunch of spoons, the lines would be different if adding spoons vs subtracting them. This is because the relative frame of reference is different.

It seems to me that the problem is fraught with insurmountable epistemological problems which can't be solved and therefore people get to make best guesses. In general though I would trust the one who speaks the language more fluently than the one who doesn't. This isn't to address novelty claims. Bahasa Indonesia, for example, mostly lacks relative tenses as well, and Proto-Indo-European probably did as well.

Re: What happens when a language has no numbers?

#12
post #6

trivia: there are some languages out there which don't have different concepts for PIROS and VÖRÖS, and just bunch them together under a single color ("red" in english).

Yeah, it's called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

I believe that Russian has something similar to Piros/Voros with shades of blue.

Re: What happens when a language has no numbers?

#13

Why would a culture that has no trade need numbers? Approximate buckets are good enough for the hunter-gatherer lifestyle. After all, it were Sumerian traders and bureaucrats who gave us both figures -and- numbers -and- a way to write them down.

"How many children/pigs/dogs are in the house? Did we forget any?"

Yeah, or alternatively how many wolves are approaching? It seems like it would be advantageous to be able to communicate whether 5 or 50.

Re: What happens when a language has no numbers?

#14
...they spark up conversation with the neighbouring tribe that has no concept of time!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13452711

...and then it all falls to pieces because they have no concept of god!

More to the point, what is the big deal with counting if there is no concept of private property?

Re: What happens when a language has no numbers?

#15
Anyone interested in the Pirahã should read 'Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes: Life and Language in the Amazonian Jungle' by Daniel Everett ( http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Sleep-There-Are-Snakes/dp/0307386... )

There's quite a bit about the language, but the backstory of Daniel going over as a missionary and losing his faith (and family) while trying to convert a happy people in no need of religion is stunning.

Re: What happens when a language has no numbers?

#16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"How many children/pigs/dogs are in the house? Did we forget any?"

Yeah, or alternatively how many wolves are approaching? It seems like it would be advantageous to be able to communicate whether 5 or 50.

Three.

You must be referring to the legendary 3 Wolf T-Shirt available on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Original-Three-Wolf-Adult-T-Shirt/dp...

Just get the T-Shirt and read the reviews - famously funny.

There aren't any wolves in the Amazon rainforest - not enough bins for them to go through, apparently.

Re: What happens when a language has no numbers?

#17
post #6

trivia: there are some languages out there which don't have different concepts for PIROS and VÖRÖS, and just bunch them together under a single color ("red" in english).

Yeah, it's called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity I believe that Russian has something similar to Piros/Voros with shades of blue.

The "blue" and "indigo" in "Richard Of York Gave Battle In Vain" are just two shades of blue in Russian, more like "light blue" (голубой) and "dark blue" (синий).

Re: What happens when a language has no numbers?

#18
post #10
post #6

trivia: there are some languages out there which don't have different concepts for PIROS and VÖRÖS, and just bunch them together under a single color ("red" in english).

Red is a broad group of colours. There are plenty of more specific names for types of red, like scarlet or ruby, does that qualify?

but when you ask a non-specialist[1] "what color is this", pointing to a scarlet object, they'll say "red". They will also take longer to tell the difference between turquoise and blue than between proper green and blue, where (I think it was) Thai-speakers wouldn't[2] (who have a primary-colour word for turquoise).

[1] specialist = (color-theorist, decorator)

[2] http://www.pnas.org/content/104/19/7780.full actually, this article seems to talk about Russian, I'm getting the Thai thing from a discussion I remember (a video by the authors at the Long Now foundation[3].)

[3] http://longnow.org/seminars/02010/oct/26/how-language-shapes...

Re: What happens when a language has no numbers?

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"How many children/pigs/dogs are in the house? Did we forget any?"

Yeah, or alternatively how many wolves are approaching? It seems like it would be advantageous to be able to communicate whether 5 or 50.

What would you do differently if it was 5 or 8 wolves? Having concepts like "a few" and "a lot" seems to be enough for this case.

Re: What happens when a language has no numbers?

#20

Why would a culture that has no trade need numbers? Approximate buckets are good enough for the hunter-gatherer lifestyle. After all, it were Sumerian traders and bureaucrats who gave us both figures -and- numbers -and- a way to write them down.

"How many children/pigs/dogs are in the house? Did we forget any?"

Did we forget any to our way to the mall maybe? Animals seem to be able to handle their young ones without counting them too.
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