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Dropbox clone that uses FTP (open-source): Beta feedback appreciated

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Dropbox clone that uses FTP (open-source): Beta feedback appreciated

#11

Post by cyman »

dragonwriter wrote: post #4
cyman wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the only standard for file transfer we have, and it can be secure. Why does it have to die? (NOTE: WebDav has even more issues but that's the only other standard.)

> It's the only standard for file transfer we have No, its not. > Why does it have to die? Because its problematic in a whole lot of ways, and FTPS doesn't help much for most of them. [1] identifies a lot of them (in the context of implementing a MacFUSE filesystem, but the issues apply to most applications.) > (NOTE: WebDav has even more issues but that's the only other standard.) You keep using that word "only"; I…

dragonwriter, first, I want to say, you are correct that FTP/FTPS is not the World's Best Protocol. In fact, maybe it is the worst protocol in the world.

What I'm saying is, that doesn't matter. It's still the most common and easiest to set up for a novice user. Trust me, I don't enjoy reading obscure RFCs on FTP's UTF8 encoding.

I'm using FTP/FTP-SSL because it's the easiest and most common for the end user. FileZilla Server does not support SFTP.

The goal of the project is simple: Let the average tech-savvy person use their own private server to sync. So it needs to be simple and free: FileZilla Server backend (runs on Windows or Linux) and IQBox front-end. I'm open to ideas but I think that's the easiest option.

Even a QNAP will support FTP out-of-the-box.

HTTP-1.0 was a mess. POP3 was a mess. All these protocols were insecure and evolved because software makers put up with their madness and made great software.

Re: Dropbox clone that uses FTP (open-source): Beta feedback appreciated

#12

Post by cyman »

dragonwriter wrote: post #9
cyman wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think all this makes it clear that it is a software issue and not a protocol issue. That is my point here. People hate FTP (or SFTP/FTP-SSL/WebDav) because the software is implemented poorly. (NOTE: I know SFTP and FTP-SSL are different protocols.)

FTP/FTPS has serious, protocol level issues (including things that are underspecified enough that its poor as a protocol for apps on top of, and things that are just bad decisions.) WebDAV arguably has fewer essential protocol level issues (aside from being overly large and baroque) -- that is, it has fewer problems that are necessarily included in a correct implementation -- but lots of implementation issues (which,…

The only reason FTP is insecure is because system admins still allow unencrypted FTP connections. POP3 and HTTP is also insecure- it's up to the system admin to block insecure connections.

With most FTP server software I know (such as ServU or FileZilla Server) once you force SSL connections, the server will disconnect users on the USER command (before sending the password) if they are connected insecurely. So only if your system administrator wants to allow insecure connections, will you be allowed to transmit the password insecurely.

Why do people still connect using the old insecure FTP standard? It's the software.

I personally think FileZilla should connect using SSL Explicit by default. IQBox defaults to SSL, and prompts the user for a fallback. So again I think it's a software issue, not a protocol issue.

Re: Dropbox clone that uses FTP (open-source): Beta feedback appreciated

#13

Post by dragonwriter »

cyman wrote: post #11
dragonwriter wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the only standard for file transfer we have No, its not. > Why does it have to die? Because its problematic in a whole lot of ways, and FTPS doesn't help much for most of them. [1] identifies a lot of them (in the context of implementing a MacFUSE filesystem, but the issues apply to most applications.) > (NOTE: WebDav has even more issues but that's the only other standard.) You keep using that word "only"; I…

dragonwriter, first, I want to say, you are correct that FTP/FTPS is not the World's Best Protocol. In fact, maybe it is the worst protocol in the world. What I'm saying is, that doesn't matter. It's still the most common and easiest to set up for a novice user. Trust me, I don't enjoy reading obscure RFCs on FTP's UTF8 encoding. I'm using FTP/FTP-SSL because it's the easiest and most common for the end user . FileZi…

> I'm using FTP/FTP-SSL because it's the easiest and most common for the end user.

That's quite a bit different than your original argument (which was the self-contradictory argument that FTP is the only standard for file transfer, and that WebDAV is the only other standard for file transfer.)

> It's still the most common and easiest to set up for a novice user.

I don't think there are many "novice users" that can setup an FTP server that would fall down at setting up an SFTP server.

> FileZilla Server does not support SFTP.

There are plenty of open-source SFTP servers for windows and that support linux (not necessarily the same server for both windows and linux, but see the next point.)

> So it needs to be simple and free: FileZilla Server backend (runs on Windows or Linux)

According to https://filezilla-project.org/ FileZilla Server is Windows-only.

> HTTP-1.0 was a mess. POP3 was a mess. All these protocols were insecure and evolved because software makers put up with their madness and made great software.

Right, and once HTTP/1.1 and IMAP were widely available and well supported with F/OSS servers and clients for most platforms, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to tie a new product to HTTP/1.0 or POP3.

There's a difference with putting up with a protocol that is suboptimal but the best available for the role that has widespread support and, on the other hand, doing so when alternatives that address its problems have been well established.

Re: Dropbox clone that uses FTP (open-source): Beta feedback appreciated

#15

Post by cyman »

dragonwriter wrote: post #13
cyman wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

dragonwriter, first, I want to say, you are correct that FTP/FTPS is not the World's Best Protocol. In fact, maybe it is the worst protocol in the world. What I'm saying is, that doesn't matter. It's still the most common and easiest to set up for a novice user. Trust me, I don't enjoy reading obscure RFCs on FTP's UTF8 encoding. I'm using FTP/FTP-SSL because it's the easiest and most common for the end user . FileZi…

> I'm using FTP/FTP-SSL because it's the easiest and most common for the end user. That's quite a bit different than your original argument (which was the self-contradictory argument that FTP is the only standard for file transfer, and that WebDAV is the only other standard for file transfer.) > It's still the most common and easiest to set up for a novice user. I don't think there are many "novice users" that can se…

There is no problem with FTP so long as you implement the standard properly (with explicit SSL and PROT P).

But here's the crux of the issue- For better or worse, most people at this time still use FTP/FTPS. So not supporting FTP is like not supporting POP3 in 1998 when everyone is using it.

GoDaddy and Yahoo Hosting, at this time, both support FTPS out-of-the-box and not SFTP. (Yahoo blocks non-SSL FTP connections). GoDaddy only supports SFTP for paid accounts and it requires setup (http://goo.gl/a9UFRP). There's no native Python SFTP library at this time, but FTP-SSL has native Python support. Most non-IT people have probably connected to an FTP site, but probably not an SFTP site. You're correct about FileZilla Server, I was mistaken about that. Still, most Linux FTP servers have added support for FTPS.

In other words, for better or for worse, FTPS is the direction things are heading in and I'm not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing.

Please don't shoot the messenger. We default to SSL (unlike FileZilla) and prompt before fall back.

It would be nice if you could be more positive about our open-source work and constructively suggest that we support SFTP. If there's enough demand, we can add it.

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