From disgruntled developer, to founder, to burnout • Hacker News Board

Re: From disgruntled developer, to founder, to burnout

#11

Post by timje1 » Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 3:15 PM UTC

jes5199 wrote: post #5

This is what happens when you think that a programmer's job is to create code - you type and type and type and just get buried in the complexity and things get worse and worse. A programmer's job is to understand problems. A programmer's job is to think clearly. The code is incidental. If you think clearly about the problems, you will need less code, and gradually things will get simpler - I've seen code-bases that a…

I agree, I've never seen a maintenance nightmare that fits on a screen or two of text. Overly complex systems, in my mind, always create more long term problems than overly simple systems - even if the simple system requires a hack or two to work.

Re: From disgruntled developer, to founder, to burnout

#12

Post by Swizec » Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 3:16 PM UTC

fro wrote: post #6

In the description of the book the author is pushing, I find this sentence, "A popular trend is to get up at 4am and get some work done before the day’s craziness begins. Others like going to bed at 4am." Do real, professional programmers work this way? It is romantic to think of hacking away in front of a glowing screen at 3am, but I believe most work gets done during the actual work day. Often hacking at night mean…

Yes, some do. It really depends, but a lot of the people I talked to were adamant their best work in terms of coding comes from off-peak hours at the office.

And why do you think a late-night bout of work has to be crazed and caffeine-fueled? You can only pack so much productive time in the day, you won't get more hours from working at night. But you might get better hours if you start working at 4pm instead of 9am.

At the end of the day, it depends.

Re: From disgruntled developer, to founder, to burnout

#13

Post by invalidOrTaken » Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 3:17 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #10

jtreminio wrote: post #3

> Offices showered in natural light. Large windows overlooking a lush green park, playful decor, walls covered in old design projects, sofas in the lounge, shelves full of books on design and marketing. A relaxed culture. > Nobody had any real idea how programmers function. How we think, how we work, what we need to feel productive. For a long time I was the only programmer on the team. This isn't pointed only at you…

At the time I was working for 5 euro an hour. And different jobs have different standards for what constitutes as terrible working conditions. Sure the office was great, I was comfy, I had tea. But the working conditions were terrible. Being interrupted every 5 minutes, requirements jumping around and not having a say in what you're working on at all can be really terrible when your job consists of long stretches of…

Downvoted when I meant to upvote, sorry.

Re: From disgruntled developer, to founder, to burnout

#14

Post by fro » Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 3:25 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #12

fro wrote: post #6

In the description of the book the author is pushing, I find this sentence, "A popular trend is to get up at 4am and get some work done before the day’s craziness begins. Others like going to bed at 4am." Do real, professional programmers work this way? It is romantic to think of hacking away in front of a glowing screen at 3am, but I believe most work gets done during the actual work day. Often hacking at night mean…

Yes, some do. It really depends, but a lot of the people I talked to were adamant their best work in terms of coding comes from off-peak hours at the office. And why do you think a late-night bout of work has to be crazed and caffeine-fueled? You can only pack so much productive time in the day, you won't get more hours from working at night. But you might get better hours if you start working at 4pm instead of 9am.…

It's not so much about when you work, but that you have a set schedule and routine. If you have a job, usually this is during the day. Knowing when you wake up every day that you will be working at these exact times tremendously helps your focus and production.

Very often late night, sporadic sessions are a product of, "oh crap I have to get some work done! Time for coffee and pounding out as much code as I can."

Not saying you can't be productive at night, but real production comes from day in, day out routine and dedication to the work. It's not as sexy but it's the reality of the job.

Re: From disgruntled developer, to founder, to burnout

#15

Post by jdowner » Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 3:29 PM UTC

fro wrote: post #6

In the description of the book the author is pushing, I find this sentence, "A popular trend is to get up at 4am and get some work done before the day’s craziness begins. Others like going to bed at 4am." Do real, professional programmers work this way? It is romantic to think of hacking away in front of a glowing screen at 3am, but I believe most work gets done during the actual work day. Often hacking at night mean…

I think you may be reading more into that sentence than it says. While I don't doubt that there are programmers working 'late night, crazed, caffeine-fueled session' you're extrapolating well beyond what the author said. Do professionals work earlier or later to avoid disruptive times? Yes. My least productive period (for coding) is in the middle of the day (between 10am - 2pm). So, that is when I plan to do things that are not coding. I tend to come into work early for two reasons: (1) it makes my commute easier, and (2) I get most of my coding done before the majority of the people in the office come in. I don't think it is a controversial idea that software engineers tend to find they do their best work in quiet or low-distraction environments.

I have to confess, I do have the unusual habit of starting my day with a cup of coffee so maybe I am one of those caffiene-fueled crazies after all :)

Re: From disgruntled developer, to founder, to burnout

#16

Post by Swizec » Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 3:36 PM UTC

fro wrote: post #14

Swizec wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, some do. It really depends, but a lot of the people I talked to were adamant their best work in terms of coding comes from off-peak hours at the office. And why do you think a late-night bout of work has to be crazed and caffeine-fueled? You can only pack so much productive time in the day, you won't get more hours from working at night. But you might get better hours if you start working at 4pm instead of 9am.…

It's not so much about when you work, but that you have a set schedule and routine. If you have a job, usually this is during the day. Knowing when you wake up every day that you will be working at these exact times tremendously helps your focus and production. Very often late night, sporadic sessions are a product of, "oh crap I have to get some work done! Time for coffee and pounding out as much code as I can." Not…

Yup, I agree. Routine is key and I personally like having a large part of that routine set in the night.

Re: From disgruntled developer, to founder, to burnout

#17

Post by buckbova » Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 3:39 PM UTC

knieveltech wrote: post #7

jtreminio wrote: post #3

> Offices showered in natural light. Large windows overlooking a lush green park, playful decor, walls covered in old design projects, sofas in the lounge, shelves full of books on design and marketing. A relaxed culture. > Nobody had any real idea how programmers function. How we think, how we work, what we need to feel productive. For a long time I was the only programmer on the team. This isn't pointed only at you…

I worked in the trades (carpentry, roofing, ironwork) for years before I switched careers and became a programmer. The biggest adjustment for me was learning not to cringe whenever one of my coworkers goes on a hyper-entitled rant about working conditions or how our codebase and our company is archaic and shitty because we aren't using .

At the end of the day after I built something with my hands or even dug a pit, I could sit back with a beer and truly let my mind go, content with what I'd done that day.

As a programmer/developer/architect, my mind is never really free from the work I'd done. I always think about how I need to refactor this or that and what is yet to be done tomorrow. Now I drink until I forget the day.

Re: From disgruntled developer, to founder, to burnout

#18

Post by greenrice » Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 3:41 PM UTC

fro wrote: post #6

In the description of the book the author is pushing, I find this sentence, "A popular trend is to get up at 4am and get some work done before the day’s craziness begins. Others like going to bed at 4am." Do real, professional programmers work this way? It is romantic to think of hacking away in front of a glowing screen at 3am, but I believe most work gets done during the actual work day. Often hacking at night mean…

There seems to be a certain aspect of the night owl that is present in many programmers, I for one am far more productive in the late-afternoon and evening than I am in the morning. Setting a morning-to-evening schedule isn't going to work for a lot of us.

Re: From disgruntled developer, to founder, to burnout

#19

Post by JanneVee » Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 3:46 PM UTC

knieveltech wrote: post #7

jtreminio wrote: post #3

> Offices showered in natural light. Large windows overlooking a lush green park, playful decor, walls covered in old design projects, sofas in the lounge, shelves full of books on design and marketing. A relaxed culture. > Nobody had any real idea how programmers function. How we think, how we work, what we need to feel productive. For a long time I was the only programmer on the team. This isn't pointed only at you…

I worked in the trades (carpentry, roofing, ironwork) for years before I switched careers and became a programmer. The biggest adjustment for me was learning not to cringe whenever one of my coworkers goes on a hyper-entitled rant about working conditions or how our codebase and our company is archaic and shitty because we aren't using .

There are working conditions within software development we can complain about. Starting of with people thinking just because it is not physical labour we can work much longer hours. Yes up to a point we can work a little longer. But if people get sleep deprived then you might as well have free beer instead of sodas in the fridge. Just google "sleep deprivation drunk equivalent" and you will find a bunch research.

Re: From disgruntled developer, to founder, to burnout

#20

Post by hackula1 » Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 3:53 PM UTC

buckbova wrote: post #17

knieveltech wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in the trades (carpentry, roofing, ironwork) for years before I switched careers and became a programmer. The biggest adjustment for me was learning not to cringe whenever one of my coworkers goes on a hyper-entitled rant about working conditions or how our codebase and our company is archaic and shitty because we aren't using .

At the end of the day after I built something with my hands or even dug a pit, I could sit back with a beer and truly let my mind go, content with what I'd done that day. As a programmer/developer/architect, my mind is never really free from the work I'd done. I always think about how I need to refactor this or that and what is yet to be done tomorrow. Now I drink until I forget the day.

Just a piece of advice for a fellow coder/architect: Try out some meditation of some sort after you get off work, and before you crack open the beer. I have noticed a huge improvement in my ability to relax at night after starting this about 6 months ago. All I really do is 20 minutes of yoga right when I get home, and it has made all the difference. I always love beer, but it just tastes better when my mind is not stuck on whether or not the hotfix I shimmed into the API earlier to have things ready for the big meeting will explode in the middle of the night and trigger a bunch of angry emails.