Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again • Hacker News Board

Re: Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

#11

Post by vukmir » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 5:55 PM UTC

kevingadd wrote: post #5

vukmir wrote: post #4

Men: "Why Are You So Angry? She: "I cannot even tell you how sick I am of men telling me how I feel." I have to admit ... I'm not a native speaker of English, but asking a question and "telling you how to feel" are two different things. TIP #1: Don't call someone an asshole if you want his help. Just saying. EDIT: Getting downvoted because I think that asking a question and telling someone how she feels are two diffe…

"Why are you so angry" in native English is not a question; it's a question tied to an implication. The question implies that the person being asked the question is angry. Most answers involve accepting the implication as correct. The stereotypical example used to demonstrate this in English is probably 'have you stopped beating your wife'. 'Yes' implies that you have a wife and you used to beat her; 'No' implies tha…

I'm aware of it being tied to an implication, but I don't agree with you that "why are you so angry?" is in the same category as the example you gave ("have you stopped beating your wife").

In my view, if I ask you "why are you so angry?" I perceive you as being angry.

Re: Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

#12

Post by vukmir » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 5:58 PM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #10

vukmir wrote: post #4

Men: "Why Are You So Angry? She: "I cannot even tell you how sick I am of men telling me how I feel." I have to admit ... I'm not a native speaker of English, but asking a question and "telling you how to feel" are two different things. TIP #1: Don't call someone an asshole if you want his help. Just saying. EDIT: Getting downvoted because I think that asking a question and telling someone how she feels are two diffe…

Agree with kevingadd, and to add a bit more to it: There is another statement between the lines. "Why are you so angry?" implies "This is too unimportant/trivial/false to get angry about." That's the prescriptive part that I think author is referring to. This can be extra-infuriating, because not only can you not get your listener to engage on the topic at hand, they're outright dismissing this as a problem worth you…

Not to repeat myself, see the answer to kevingadd's comment.

EDIT:

"If your goal is to belittle and disrespect someone, use this phrase frequently. If your goal is understanding and genuine engagement with someone who thinks and believes differently than you, don't use this phrase at all."

I didn't know this. Out of curiosity, how do you ask someone who is obviously angry why he/she/it is being angry?

Re: Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

#13

Post by potatolicious » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 6:04 PM UTC

I feel like author went off the rails in a few places, and there were more digs at White Men than I thought was justified (note: I'm a non-white male). It's become somewhat vogue to use "White" as a pejorative and synonym with "bigot", and I'm not okay with that.

If we want people to stop seeing us as our collective racial/gender/cultural stereotypes, then we can't engage in the same shenanigans ourselves.

That being said, this post struck a chord with me. As a pretty vanilla straight male, I can't identify with much of the gender issues she posed, but her blog post reminds me heavily of trying to discuss race on HN.

I frequently see some incredibly racist things being posted around here in the comments, and I've basically stopped calling them out. You see a lot of the same reactions in this community as what she describes - a lot of "why are you so angry", a lot of trivialization of the issue, a lot of unexamined privilege, and lots of people reacting very defensively as if simply by pointing out inequities I'm painting a giant bullseye on your racial-majority forehead.

These problems exist. They are real. If you are not part of a racial minority you probably won't fully comprehend what it's really like. But that's okay, no one expects you to fully grok it, and no one is calling you out just because you're [insert majority race in whatever locale]. What we do want is some modicum of understanding, some modicum of respect, and less middle-brow dismissals of things that millions upon millions of people are experiencing.

So yeah, I think the general thesis of this post is sound. I just wish she were less vitriolic about it - but honestly, having gone through similar things (in a racial, rather than gender, context) I can see why she is.

Re: Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

#14

Post by potatolicious » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 6:07 PM UTC

vukmir wrote: post #12

potatolicious wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with kevingadd, and to add a bit more to it: There is another statement between the lines. "Why are you so angry?" implies "This is too unimportant/trivial/false to get angry about." That's the prescriptive part that I think author is referring to. This can be extra-infuriating, because not only can you not get your listener to engage on the topic at hand, they're outright dismissing this as a problem worth you…

Not to repeat myself, see the answer to kevingadd's comment. EDIT: "If your goal is to belittle and disrespect someone, use this phrase frequently. If your goal is understanding and genuine engagement with someone who thinks and believes differently than you, don't use this phrase at all." I didn't know this. Out of curiosity, how do you ask someone who is obviously angry why he/she/it is being angry?

If someone stole my car, and I come up to you. Angrily:

"vukmir, some asshole stole my car! I can't believe it! I was late to an important meeting! What a fucking shitbag!"

Would you respond with:

"Woah woah, why are you so angry?"

You know why I'm angry. The only context under which "why are you angry" is even a sensical question is one where the thing I'm angry about isn't worth being angry about. Which is also to say "why are you so angry" necessarily entails the dismissal of the subject the speaker is angry about.

edit:

> "how do you ask someone who is obviously angry why he/she/it is being angry?"

How would you respond to my hypothetical rant above, where someone has stolen my car?

Re: Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

#15

Post by a3voices » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 6:07 PM UTC

prutschman wrote: post #8

a3voices wrote: post #2

I think more men are successful at tech because more enter the field. At my university, which was actually 56% female (IIRC), my electrical engineering classes almost entirely consisted of males.

I think it's worth looking at why more men enter the field. I think it's also worth looking at why the participation of women in computer science in particular, as opposed to other technical fields, decreased on a relative basis after initial increases.[1] [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/16/business/16digi.html?_r=0

I'd wager that it's a variety of factors that are mostly cultural.

Re: Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

#16

Post by Fuzzwah » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 6:10 PM UTC

I'm a white male. I'm a husband. I'm about to become a father (we're avoiding finding out the sex until birth, so there's a 50% chance I'm the father of a daughter). I work in IT. I've worked with a few women. Some of been excellent, some haven't. Just the same as the men I've worked with.

I tried to work out what Shanley never, ever wanted to hear again, and I figure that it is the following 7 words.....

"I don’t know much about this, but"

However, my follow on from the but is; I'd like to get educated. The following are the points I'm taking out of this article (please let me know if I missed any, I am seriously not being sarcastic or a jerk).

- do not try to defend the "white male establishment" which I apparently am part of. (I do not feel part of it, but I guess I get lumped in it until I prove I'm not part of it?)

- do not attempt to tell a woman what she is feeling (luckily, I've learned this lesson a long time ago)

- do not talk about my experiences with women in IT (they are probably outliers like Sheryl Sandberg and Marissa Mayer)

- be able to read vague complaints about general sexism with out thinking they're targeted at me

They're fairly easy things for me to work on.

I would actually be interested in advice from Shanley on what book I should pick up to educate myself with.

A wall of passionate words with out a good call to action for white males to pick up on is frustrating to me. I want to try and help, but beyond being the decent human I've been relying on, I'm at a loss.

Re: Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

#17

Post by glenra » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 6:11 PM UTC

"derailing" is a very strange concept.

In a conversation, you generally don't get to declare all your premises off-limits, nor do you get to determine unilaterally what the other participants will find most interesting to talk about. Sometimes people will consistently disagree with one or more assumptions you make. If they do, it might be because your assumption is wrong or because you did a poor job of explaining it. In which case it's worth spending some time on that area of contention. And sometimes what you find most interesting about a subject won't be the same thing other people find most interesting - and that's okay.

As near as I can tell, complaints about "derailing" translate into "I wanted to make a speech, but the other guy kept insisting on wanting to have a conversation." Is that all there is to it?

Re: Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

#18

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 6:14 PM UTC

vukmir wrote: post #12

potatolicious wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with kevingadd, and to add a bit more to it: There is another statement between the lines. "Why are you so angry?" implies "This is too unimportant/trivial/false to get angry about." That's the prescriptive part that I think author is referring to. This can be extra-infuriating, because not only can you not get your listener to engage on the topic at hand, they're outright dismissing this as a problem worth you…

Not to repeat myself, see the answer to kevingadd's comment. EDIT: "If your goal is to belittle and disrespect someone, use this phrase frequently. If your goal is understanding and genuine engagement with someone who thinks and believes differently than you, don't use this phrase at all." I didn't know this. Out of curiosity, how do you ask someone who is obviously angry why he/she/it is being angry?

[deleted]

Re: Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

#19

Post by vukmir » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 6:17 PM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #14

vukmir wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to repeat myself, see the answer to kevingadd's comment. EDIT: "If your goal is to belittle and disrespect someone, use this phrase frequently. If your goal is understanding and genuine engagement with someone who thinks and believes differently than you, don't use this phrase at all." I didn't know this. Out of curiosity, how do you ask someone who is obviously angry why he/she/it is being angry?

If someone stole my car, and I come up to you. Angrily: "vukmir, some asshole stole my car! I can't believe it! I was late to an important meeting! What a fucking shitbag!" Would you respond with: "Woah woah, why are you so angry?" You know why I'm angry. The only context under which "why are you angry" is even a sensical question is one where the thing I'm angry about isn't worth being angry about . Which is also to…

If someone stole your car and you tell me that, then I know why are you angry. My question is about a situation when I see you being angry and I don't know the reason why.

>"How would you respond to my hypothetical rant above, where someone has stolen my car?"

Who knows ... perhaps: "That fucking asshole. Look! Here he comes ... Let's kick his ass!"

Re: Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

#20

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 6:19 PM UTC

vukmir wrote: post #4

Men: "Why Are You So Angry? She: "I cannot even tell you how sick I am of men telling me how I feel." I have to admit ... I'm not a native speaker of English, but asking a question and "telling you how to feel" are two different things. TIP #1: Don't call someone an asshole if you want his help. Just saying. EDIT: Getting downvoted because I think that asking a question and telling someone how she feels are two diffe…

> I have to admit ... I'm not a native speaker of English, but asking a question and "telling you how to feel" are two different things.

They are in general, but they aren't in the specific case where the premise on which the question is based is a claim about the feelings of the person to whom the question is addressed, e.g., "Why are you so angry?", which is equivalent to "You are so angry. Why is that?"