Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Will Higher Education Be the Next Bubble to Burst?

chronicle.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 64 posts

Re: Will Higher Education Be the Next Bubble to Burst?

#11

Post by anamax »

baguasquirrel wrote: post #2

This has been discussed before in many other sources. The cause of the bubble is probably the way tuition and financial aid are used by many colleges. Perhaps the most in-depth analysis was by The Atlantic. http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200511/financial-aid-leveragi... If this hypothesis is correct, then it has interesting implications for how a pop in the education bubble might play out. Since a fair portion of col…

> Do the top schools really need Olympic sized swimming pools, or gyms that would require a $100 a month membership in any big city?

I'd guess that students are less likely to use their college gym than members are to use their gym. If I'm correct, the per-student cost of a college gym may be in the noise.

Re: Will Higher Education Be the Next Bubble to Burst?

#12

Post by netsp »

baguasquirrel wrote: post #2

This has been discussed before in many other sources. The cause of the bubble is probably the way tuition and financial aid are used by many colleges. Perhaps the most in-depth analysis was by The Atlantic. http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200511/financial-aid-leveragi... If this hypothesis is correct, then it has interesting implications for how a pop in the education bubble might play out. Since a fair portion of col…

I'm still hoping for some sort of disruption that will change the game.

The line of thinking is along these lines: The core of what elite colleges (or any colleges) is not really valuable. A university course is mostly a syllabus, a textbook, lectures, tutorials, papers & exams. All are based on knowledge that is freely available. You do not need a Professor who spends most of his time on research that doesn't benefit you teaching you.

It wouldn't even be hard to offer the core of what Universities offer at a much lower cost. What is hard to offer is the vast periphery. The clubs & socialisation. The Gyms. The contact with researchers & other talented and/or rich young people. The social norms & leeway associated with Undergraduate life (this might be more important then we think). The prestige. The prospects created by the contacts, the prestige, the social conditioning & whatever else goes in to making a University education other then education.

A potential catalyst could be the growing Internationalisation of Uni education.

Re: Will Higher Education Be the Next Bubble to Burst?

#13

Post by thwarted »

blhack wrote: post #10
Alex3917 wrote: post #5

A product sold for 1/3 of cost is overvalued?

Perhaps the problem is that they're spending too much on the education. BLASPHEMY! You may be thinking, education is PARAMOUNT to any civilization! We musn't cut spending on education! Does anyone here live in the Phoenix, AZ area? If so, take a tour of ASU's recent campus renovations. The new dorms look like luxury-condos. The buildings around campus match. ASU has gotten into the habit of buying up the most expensi…

BLASPHEMY! You may be thinking, education is PARAMOUNT to any civilization! We musn't cut spending on education!

Yeah, and it's unfortunate that "education" often has a capital E and is viewed as being something that only formalized schools, Big Education, can provide.

Spending money on things like internet access, libraries, encouraging greater literacy and reading, and not banning "educational toys" just because they may be perceived of as dangerous (I'm thinking of things like chemistry sets here, which were a lot more fun and educational back in the day) could end up going a long way to increasing the minimum education level without actually requiring people to throw money at schools to have to attend them.

Re: Will Higher Education Be the Next Bubble to Burst?

#14

Post by Alex3917 »

anamax wrote: post #9
Alex3917 wrote: post #5

A product sold for 1/3 of cost is overvalued?

Cost has nothing to do with value. Products that cost more than they are valued tend not to be produced (or rather, there are no buyers), but that doesn't imply that everything is worth more than it costs.

"Cost has nothing to do with value."

Unless you value cost. The value of a degree comes from the story we tell ourselves, and paying $160,000 is part of that story. Most people wouldn't want to go to college if it was free; just look what people were saying when Seth announced his alternative MBA, or look at library participation among 20-somethings for that matter.

Re: Will Higher Education Be the Next Bubble to Burst?

#15

Post by potatolicious »

adamc wrote: post #8
timwiseman wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the point of the article in the Chronicle is that the top schools will be fine and do not need cut back. While this only applies to the very top schools, they will still have people willing to pay the tuition and endowments large enough to cover any student they want to admit that cannot cover the tuition themselves. It is the small and mid grade schools that may need to carefully look at their models…

I think the real solution is to stop overvaluing university degrees. Most of the folks coming out of universities don't have any particularly valuable job skills. (I'm thinking of majors in business, or liberal-arts fields, or for that matter most people with a BA/BS in the sciences.) Will that happen? Not unless getting university grads gets hard.

There needs to be a real separation between vocational schools and comprehensive universities. I get the feeling that as a society we have a thing against vocational training - even though some of the most celebrated jobs really belong there instead of at a traditional college (e.g. engineering, accounting, etc).

The problem here is that people are going to university expecting this to lead nicely into a job - it does not, particularly for the liberal arts where the path is even more vague. People expect the fact that they have a degree to mean something to employers, when it in fact does not.

This whole thing would be a lot simpler if we didn't have such a grudge against vocational schools - who by and large do not seem to have trouble placing their graduates into jobs.

Re: Will Higher Education Be the Next Bubble to Burst?

#16

Post by potatolicious »

netsp wrote: post #12
baguasquirrel wrote: post #2

This has been discussed before in many other sources. The cause of the bubble is probably the way tuition and financial aid are used by many colleges. Perhaps the most in-depth analysis was by The Atlantic. http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200511/financial-aid-leveragi... If this hypothesis is correct, then it has interesting implications for how a pop in the education bubble might play out. Since a fair portion of col…

I'm still hoping for some sort of disruption that will change the game. The line of thinking is along these lines: The core of what elite colleges (or any colleges) is not really valuable. A university course is mostly a syllabus, a textbook, lectures, tutorials, papers & exams. All are based on knowledge that is freely available. You do not need a Professor who spends most of his time on research that doesn't benefi…

I just finished my undergrad degree a month ago, and I think I have some insight into this.

By far the most valuable thing I take away from university is not the classes, but rather the experience. As a student you get a lot of leeway to screw up and learn - even interning at large, private corporations. This has helped me in my life (and my career) more immensely than anything else I've ever learned at school (most of which I doubt I will apply in a job, ever).

Secondly, the networking opportunities that you have at a university is ridiculously useful. Short of going to war together I doubt there are many forces that bind people together as tightly as the college experience. I have made many friends, many of whom are incredibly talented and will no doubt go far in life - it's a network that you can't replicate, say, studying online.

Thirdly is the name - prestigious schools, whether justifiably or not, do for some reason make you more employable in a lot of places. I know many a hacker from "lesser" colleges who can't find a job in this economy, while I had multiple offers before my final semester even started.

Re: Will Higher Education Be the Next Bubble to Burst?

#17

Post by billswift »

blhack wrote: post #10
Alex3917 wrote: post #5

A product sold for 1/3 of cost is overvalued?

Perhaps the problem is that they're spending too much on the education. BLASPHEMY! You may be thinking, education is PARAMOUNT to any civilization! We musn't cut spending on education! Does anyone here live in the Phoenix, AZ area? If so, take a tour of ASU's recent campus renovations. The new dorms look like luxury-condos. The buildings around campus match. ASU has gotten into the habit of buying up the most expensi…

"BLASPHEMY! You may be thinking, education is PARAMOUNT to any civilization! We musn't cut spending on education!"

Don't confuse education with learning.

Re: Will Higher Education Be the Next Bubble to Burst?

#18

Post by netsp »

potatolicious wrote: post #16
netsp wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still hoping for some sort of disruption that will change the game. The line of thinking is along these lines: The core of what elite colleges (or any colleges) is not really valuable. A university course is mostly a syllabus, a textbook, lectures, tutorials, papers & exams. All are based on knowledge that is freely available. You do not need a Professor who spends most of his time on research that doesn't benefi…

I just finished my undergrad degree a month ago, and I think I have some insight into this. By far the most valuable thing I take away from university is not the classes, but rather the experience. As a student you get a lot of leeway to screw up and learn - even interning at large, private corporations. This has helped me in my life (and my career) more immensely than anything else I've ever learned at school (most…

I suspect that the strongest thing holding all those aspects together is convention. I think the institution is very entrenched in the US. maybe the place for innovation is outside.

In Israel (where I am from), a lot of people do go to war together. So they're sorted for friends. Actually, most don't physically fight, but they still make friends. There is an additional (recent) institution of backpacking/travelling that tackles some of this friends/experiences/growth/leeway territory. University entrance tends to be 20-25 yr olds. So, the whole dynamic is very different. A lot of no frills courses are offered. Cost effectiveness is a big factor ,though naturally the level of Government intervention messes with this and doesn't allow private colleges to compete with research Unis on equal footing.

Another place change might come from are the places in the world now entering the growing middle income per capita range (not sure what that is exactly. But I think around 2-$10k pa) where people care about education, can afford some of it, but can't afford $100k or even 10k. They also are first generation entrants & don't have too formulated an idea of what schools should be.

Basically, what I am saying is that if you took Universities away and then let something else grow in their place, it probably wouldn't be universities.

Re: Will Higher Education Be the Next Bubble to Burst?

#19

Post by timothychung »

drawkbox wrote: post #4

That or healthcare.

It is disappointing that these service based industries come to a point when making money is becoming so important especially when they are commodities. I hope that some institutions will reduce their price for a greater purpose especially for poor people.

Re: Will Higher Education Be the Next Bubble to Burst?

#20

Post by tjmc »

netsp wrote: post #12
baguasquirrel wrote: post #2

This has been discussed before in many other sources. The cause of the bubble is probably the way tuition and financial aid are used by many colleges. Perhaps the most in-depth analysis was by The Atlantic. http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200511/financial-aid-leveragi... If this hypothesis is correct, then it has interesting implications for how a pop in the education bubble might play out. Since a fair portion of col…

I'm still hoping for some sort of disruption that will change the game. The line of thinking is along these lines: The core of what elite colleges (or any colleges) is not really valuable. A university course is mostly a syllabus, a textbook, lectures, tutorials, papers & exams. All are based on knowledge that is freely available. You do not need a Professor who spends most of his time on research that doesn't benefi…

Depends on what you're studying. Subjects like medicine, dentistry and chemistry need extensive lab facilities and highly skilled, often personal tuition. That's going to cost a lot no matter where it's done.

On a broader level you also need to consider the value of networking opportunities. Is the course content of a Harvard MBA really that much better than elsewhere? Of course not. It's the contacts you make while you're there.

Post reply on HN