More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet • Hacker News Board

Re: More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

#11

Post by Lagged2Death » Fri, Aug 30, 2013, 2:22 PM UTC

anxiousest wrote: post #4

I agree that it's ultimately a policy issue that needs to be mended by congress, what I disagree with is the needless "dig" at companies that store and analyze large amounts of data, as if that somehow is invalid conduct. The problem is the government demanding access to that data, not that the data is there in the first place.

...what I disagree with is the needless "dig" at companies that store and analyze large amounts of data, as if that somehow is invalid conduct.

The argument against building systems to amass huge databases of personal information has always been that the very existence of such systems would almost inevitably lead to abuse, through inappropriate expansion of the collection activity and through inappropriate uses of the resulting database. It's simply too tempting a target to leave unmolested.

From that point of view, storing and analyzing large amounts of data is "invalid conduct."

Current events are just history proving this out yet again.

Re: More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

#12

Post by Lagged2Death » Fri, Aug 30, 2013, 2:27 PM UTC

anxiousest wrote: post #8

001sky wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, why is it better for part X rather than party Y? both are likely to abuse the data, absent non-naive controls or incentive structures. 'take my word' or 'trust me' etc are not such structures AFAIK.

These companies can't detain you in an airport or throw you in prison, there are massive benefits to be had from this data for the user, not to mention that you have a contract in place with these companies that don't have with the NSA.

These companies can't detain you in an airport or throw you in prison...

Neither can the NSA.

Remember this? (http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/08/government-k...)

Cops searched this family's house at a private corporation's behest, more or less. The fact that a large database is privately held isn't going to protect you from the government.

Re: More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

#13

Post by dllthomas » Fri, Aug 30, 2013, 2:32 PM UTC

anxiousest wrote: post #8

001sky wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, why is it better for part X rather than party Y? both are likely to abuse the data, absent non-naive controls or incentive structures. 'take my word' or 'trust me' etc are not such structures AFAIK.

These companies can't detain you in an airport or throw you in prison, there are massive benefits to be had from this data for the user, not to mention that you have a contract in place with these companies that don't have with the NSA.

And, most importantly, you can leave.

Re: More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

#14

Post by anxiousest » Fri, Aug 30, 2013, 2:35 PM UTC

Lagged2Death wrote: post #11

anxiousest wrote: post #4

I agree that it's ultimately a policy issue that needs to be mended by congress, what I disagree with is the needless "dig" at companies that store and analyze large amounts of data, as if that somehow is invalid conduct. The problem is the government demanding access to that data, not that the data is there in the first place.

...what I disagree with is the needless "dig" at companies that store and analyze large amounts of data, as if that somehow is invalid conduct. The argument against building systems to amass huge databases of personal information has always been that the very existence of such systems would almost inevitably lead to abuse, through inappropriate expansion of the collection activity and through inappropriate uses of th…

That is an extreme point of view that I don't agree with. I'd like to point out that these abuses weren't committed by the data holders but by the government, the same entity tasked with regulating data abuse, also as long as the user has control over their data and the ability to opt out, much of the potential threat is neutralized.

Re: More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

#15

Post by avoutthere » Fri, Aug 30, 2013, 2:41 PM UTC

The idea of a National Security Letter, a device which strips the recipient of several basic human rights, is so blatantly unconstitutional that it should have never been allowed to exist at all, let alone persist as long as it has. It's a device straight out of the Cold War east bloc.

Re: More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

#16

Post by hga » Fri, Aug 30, 2013, 2:41 PM UTC

goatforce5 wrote: post #10

I know nothing of Lavabit, but let's say he did comply with the order and then months or years later the company simply isn't profitable and he needs to shut it down. Could he shut it down then? Or would he suddenly find himself hosting lots of paid government accounts - enough to make it financially viable? (But define viable... Does "I'm not pocketing $1m/year from this business, so I don't care any more. Turn it o…

Best example I know of something like this is Carpathia's conundrum in the Megaupload case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaupload#Data_retention

Re: More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

#17

Post by lifeisstillgood » Fri, Aug 30, 2013, 2:43 PM UTC

goatforce5 wrote: post #10

I know nothing of Lavabit, but let's say he did comply with the order and then months or years later the company simply isn't profitable and he needs to shut it down. Could he shut it down then? Or would he suddenly find himself hosting lots of paid government accounts - enough to make it financially viable? (But define viable... Does "I'm not pocketing $1m/year from this business, so I don't care any more. Turn it o…

An NSL simply cannot be included in any due diligence.

That's absolutely brilliant and insightful - there are 192,499 (1) NSL's issued - which either will represent a huge and uncountable liability during due diligence or a massive impact on M&A work in the future.

(1)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter

Re: More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

#18

Post by leokun » Fri, Aug 30, 2013, 2:44 PM UTC

Several months ago that tone would have sounded conspiracy crazed nutty. But post-Snowden and given that it's schneier, it's sad to realize we've come to realize how bad the situation is. I'm still inclined to not change any actions on my part because I'm not worried about being under surveillance. I'm neither interesting, nor engaged in anything interesting. However, I would like it if the spying were reduced to remove the bulk tapping of the internet.

Re: More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

#19

Post by gbrindisi » Fri, Aug 30, 2013, 2:47 PM UTC

leokun wrote: post #18

Several months ago that tone would have sounded conspiracy crazed nutty. But post-Snowden and given that it's schneier, it's sad to realize we've come to realize how bad the situation is. I'm still inclined to not change any actions on my part because I'm not worried about being under surveillance. I'm neither interesting, nor engaged in anything interesting. However, I would like it if the spying were reduced to rem…

> I'm still inclined to not change any actions on my part because I'm not worried about being under surveillance. I'm neither interesting, nor engaged in anything interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

Re: More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

#20

Post by devx » Fri, Aug 30, 2013, 2:47 PM UTC

goatforce5 wrote: post #10

I know nothing of Lavabit, but let's say he did comply with the order and then months or years later the company simply isn't profitable and he needs to shut it down. Could he shut it down then? Or would he suddenly find himself hosting lots of paid government accounts - enough to make it financially viable? (But define viable... Does "I'm not pocketing $1m/year from this business, so I don't care any more. Turn it o…

That's why the government is paying the companies to access the data. So it's much easier for companies to just comply with the order. The carrot and the stick.