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Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

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Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#11

Post by einhverfr »

hobs wrote: post #3
einhverfr wrote: post #2

Where this is going is a clear showdown on a large number of levels. I wish I could be optimistic about this being resolved decisively for the good guys but I think most likely we are likely to see a codification of the same stalemate. The NSA has created a large market for services like Silent Circle and this means that a larger number of wiretaps and the like are likely to "go dark" as a result of encryption. We ne…

Yeah, I think many of the same things. How are we supposed to challenge a secret program that even the overseers say they are overreaching, and yet wont acknowledge it exists, or that anyone has any right to sue because they cant prove the secret program targeted them. Its a complete farce as far as I can tell, and the dog and pony show will eventually calm and then we will basically be in the same position as we eve…

What's worse, the NSA can pass on what the DEA will claim are anonymous tips that lead to evidence that lead to searches, etc. We become a society of "find me the man and I'll show you the crime" but with a stronger illusion to the rule of law than Stalin was able to muster.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#12

Post by mcphilip »

Cue praise from the majority of the main stream media that only tens of thousands of communications are improperly monitored since there are roughly 150 billion emails sent per day (globally). The surveillance program will be declared a stunning success and most people will agree since they are impressed by small percentages. The error rate being so low will imply, to most people, that the NSA is painstakingly concerned with only monitoring pertinent communications.

Out of curiosity, what is a good argument against this perspective that Average Joe can grok?

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#13

Post by ihsw »

jnbiche wrote: post #6

Two things are bothering me immensely: 1. Each time something increasingly worse about the NSA surveillance gets revealed, or confirmed, Sens. Wyden and Udall release a statement saying something like: "This is only the tip of the iceberg: if Americans only knew how bad it was, they'd be very angry." They're on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and so are in a position to know at least more than their colleagues, an…

> Is all of congress tapped? All the governors? Snowden hinted at this. What the fuck is going on in my country?

I'm going to assume the worst, which would be that the NSA is used as a tool of blackmail by nefarious parties whom the NSA relies on. Key House and Senate members put in a good word for the NSA and then they get some "free" information on their opponents, at which point they convince their opponents to "trade" wins with the opposing party's leadership.

Those in on the game get to continue their political career because the party leaderships are coordinating wins between each-other through bipartisan-orchestrated gerrymandering, and "suicide" elections where elected officials intentionally lose their elections in order to boost the profile of their friendly opponents.

Those whom are bucking the chain of command are ostracised and relegated to the fringes (eg: the Pauls).

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#14

Post by LoganCale »

jnbiche wrote: post #10
LoganCale wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'll be kicked out of the committees that allow them access to that classified data and will be unable to do anything further to try and fight these things.

So their precious committee appointment is more important than their oath? Really, if that's all that's holding them back, then I've lost any respect I have for them. As things stand, they've been able to do very little to "fight these things" even sitting on the committee. What we need right now is to know the full extent of the damage. And they swore an oath to protect the constitution. Any fool can see what an exi…

Their committee appointment is important to us, not just them. It's better to have a few allies on these committees, even if their hands are tied, than to have none at all. They've done more than most have been able to do, including calling out NSA lies.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#16

Post by LoganCale »

einhverfr wrote: post #11
hobs wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I think many of the same things. How are we supposed to challenge a secret program that even the overseers say they are overreaching, and yet wont acknowledge it exists, or that anyone has any right to sue because they cant prove the secret program targeted them. Its a complete farce as far as I can tell, and the dog and pony show will eventually calm and then we will basically be in the same position as we eve…

What's worse, the NSA can pass on what the DEA will claim are anonymous tips that lead to evidence that lead to searches, etc. We become a society of "find me the man and I'll show you the crime" but with a stronger illusion to the rule of law than Stalin was able to muster.

They are already doing this. The NSA gives the DEA information, which the DEA then hides from everyone, including judges, and uses it to build a parallel case against the people the NSA spied on.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/08/dea-and-nsa-team-intel...

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#17

Post by argumentum »

jnbiche wrote: post #10
LoganCale wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'll be kicked out of the committees that allow them access to that classified data and will be unable to do anything further to try and fight these things.

So their precious committee appointment is more important than their oath? Really, if that's all that's holding them back, then I've lost any respect I have for them. As things stand, they've been able to do very little to "fight these things" even sitting on the committee. What we need right now is to know the full extent of the damage. And they swore an oath to protect the constitution. Any fool can see what an exi…

I don't think you even read the post you replied to ..

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#18

Post by [deleted] »

jnbiche wrote: post #6

Two things are bothering me immensely: 1. Each time something increasingly worse about the NSA surveillance gets revealed, or confirmed, Sens. Wyden and Udall release a statement saying something like: "This is only the tip of the iceberg: if Americans only knew how bad it was, they'd be very angry." They're on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and so are in a position to know at least more than their colleagues, an…

[deleted]

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#19

Post by bengrunfeld »

LoganCale wrote: post #9
bengrunfeld wrote: post #4

As a new immigrant to the USA, I am simply appalled at the infringement of privacy that is being carried out by the NSA and the government. In Australia, we learned that the 1st amendment protected the Freedom of Speech of every American. How can you have Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press when every private communication of citizens and reporters alike are being scrutinized by secret agencies in the governme…

You can't. But a large number of people seem to not care, because they're already so used to putting every thought that pops into their head online where everyone can see it.

Right, but this isn't just about teeny-boppers posting pics of themselves partaking in underage drinking on Facebook. This is about journalists being intimidated by government representatives if they start writing an article on their private computer that is embarrassing to a particular senator. Sorry, but that's in a totally different baseball league.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#20

Post by einhverfr »

LoganCale wrote: post #16
einhverfr wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's worse, the NSA can pass on what the DEA will claim are anonymous tips that lead to evidence that lead to searches, etc. We become a society of "find me the man and I'll show you the crime" but with a stronger illusion to the rule of law than Stalin was able to muster.

They are already doing this. The NSA gives the DEA information, which the DEA then hides from everyone, including judges, and uses it to build a parallel case against the people the NSA spied on. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/08/dea-and-nsa-team-intel...

Just for the record, I chose that example because I was aware of the fact it was happening.

The scary thing though is that this means that people the NSA doesn't like can find themselves at the center of whatever scrutiny they think is most appropriate.

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