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Electrical signatures of consciousness in the dying brain

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Re: Electrical signatures of consciousness in the dying brain

#11

Post by andyjohnson0 »

apl wrote: post #5
jbri wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demanding that research show immediate practicality is a good way to end up doing no meaningful research whatsoever. Virtually every major discovery in the past hundred years (if not more) stems from research that had no obvious direct application. The biggest benefit of the post-industrial society is being able to spend time on things that aren't immediately useful, but potentially have greater benefits further down…

Keep in mind that "All breakthroughs are derived from basic research" (if true) doesn't entail "All basic research leads to breakthroughs". We still need to judge the merit of basic research; in this case I'm slightly more skeptical as to its potential to unravel, well, anything about the mind at all.

I agree with you on the need to use judgement. In this case though, while the research might not tell us much about the mind, knowing more about the regions of the brain that are active during an NDE could provide more insight into how the brain is physically affected by oxygen starvation. It might also help with designing physical and psychological therapies for the negative consequences [1] of near death experiences for survivors.

It does seen like a lot of the discussion about this subject is (often implicitly) trying to address a religious/afterlife aspect of nde. For example, the article says 'The "near-death experience" reported by cardiac arrest survivors worldwide may be grounded in science'. The brain is a physical object that is subject to the laws of physics, so that "grounding" is inevitable whether we know how it works or not. This shouldn't be surprising and there isn't an alternative, short of admitting religion or parapsychology.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience#Effects

Re: Electrical signatures of consciousness in the dying brain

#12

Post by spurgu »

gfody wrote: post #2

I don't know if they can claim "the first scientific framework for the near-death experience". Dr. Strassman ( http://www.rickstrassman.com ) experimented on humans in the mid 90's could consistently reproduce near-death experiences by administering DMT intravenously.

I would be curious to see a comparison of the electrical activity of an NDE with someone taking DMT.

Re: Electrical signatures of consciousness in the dying brain

#13

Post by narag »

D9u wrote: post #9

How are we to know what happens after death? If electrical energy is what constitutes brain activity, then what happens to that energy when death occurs? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics What is the transformation that takes place, if any? Is there more to existence than we are capable of understanding?

If electrical energy is what constitutes brain activity, then what happens to that energy when death occurs?

What happens to electrical energy in a computer when we switch it off? I'd say that nothing very interesting.

"Constitutes" is also somewhat ambiguous. It's the structure of that electrical currents that depends on neural connections what I would say brain activity is.

Once the neurons are unusable, the energy by itself is just dispersed, mere electrons with no shape. So we... die.

Re: Electrical signatures of consciousness in the dying brain

#15

Post by andyjohnson0 »

D9u wrote: post #9

How are we to know what happens after death? If electrical energy is what constitutes brain activity, then what happens to that energy when death occurs? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics What is the transformation that takes place, if any? Is there more to existence than we are capable of understanding?

"what happens to that energy when death occurs?"

It's lost as heat.

The brain is an electro-chemical system [1][2]. That is, signals propagate via potential differences created by the presence of charged ions. In the prolonged absence of oxygen, the biochemistry of the brain ceases at a cellular level. Electrical potential differences smooth-out to the level of thermal noise. Anything left radiates out as heat until the body reaches the ambient temperature of its environment.

The radiated energy still exists in the universe, but the second law of thermodynamics implies that it is unlikely to be participating in a low-entropy system like a brain again.

[1] http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Chemical_synapse

[2] http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/human-biology/human-bo...

EDIT

I have a hard time with talking of "transformation" of electrical patterns in dying brains and "Is there more to existence than we are capable of understanding?". I don't really know what these questions mean.

I've seen a couple of people die in front of me and its a deeply upsetting experience that is charged with meaning. But thats on the level of human emotional experience. On a physical level, death is just something that bodies do at some point before their constituent matter and energy goes off to do other things in the universe. Trying to unload human emotional baggage relating to human existence (principally, fear of death) onto physical processes that are pretty well understood (biochemistry) gets us nowhere, because really where do you stop?

Re: Electrical signatures of consciousness in the dying brain

#16

Post by cryofan »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #15
D9u wrote: post #9

How are we to know what happens after death? If electrical energy is what constitutes brain activity, then what happens to that energy when death occurs? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics What is the transformation that takes place, if any? Is there more to existence than we are capable of understanding?

"what happens to that energy when death occurs?" It's lost as heat. The brain is an electro-chemical system [1][2]. That is, signals propagate via potential differences created by the presence of charged ions. In the prolonged absence of oxygen, the biochemistry of the brain ceases at a cellular level. Electrical potential differences smooth-out to the level of thermal noise. Anything left radiates out as heat until…

however, if the structure of the brain is preserved in liquid nitrogen for hundreds of years, the brain may then be revived and placed into another body, repaired and restarted, and the person may live again.

After death, autolysis destroys the structure of the brain if the brain is left at room temp for a day or so. However, the application of ice to the brain soon after death will prevent this by lowering temps to near zero C, which slows autolysis greatly. The brain may then be taken down to liquid nitrogen temps and preserved in a dewar or cryostat for hundreds or even thousands of years.

Re: Electrical signatures of consciousness in the dying brain

#18

Post by Tichy »

I dunno - isn't this the most useless experiment ever? The brain reacts to death throes of the body. Who would have thought? I would imagine being killed would be a pretty significant experience for the brain, and usually a completely new one.

Also I was under the impression that clinical death implied that there are no more brain waves.

Re: Electrical signatures of consciousness in the dying brain

#19

Post by asgard1024 »

megfitz wrote: post #3

"“It will form the foundation for future human studies investigating mental experiences occurring in the dying brain, including seeing light during cardiac arrest,” she says." I am a big fan of science and research - and I think we should always be questioning everything. But I'm curious to know what benefits this research has. I genuinely don't know where this kind of research could lead so I'm not naive enough to s…

It may be useful to recognize a dying brain from a non-dying one, don't you think?

Re: Electrical signatures of consciousness in the dying brain

#20

Post by snowwrestler »

apl wrote: post #5
jbri wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demanding that research show immediate practicality is a good way to end up doing no meaningful research whatsoever. Virtually every major discovery in the past hundred years (if not more) stems from research that had no obvious direct application. The biggest benefit of the post-industrial society is being able to spend time on things that aren't immediately useful, but potentially have greater benefits further down…

Keep in mind that "All breakthroughs are derived from basic research" (if true) doesn't entail "All basic research leads to breakthroughs". We still need to judge the merit of basic research; in this case I'm slightly more skeptical as to its potential to unravel, well, anything about the mind at all.

The problem is that there is no way to tell in advance which basic research will be useful later on.
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