I quit after the first paragraph. If you assume "proof by contradiction" to be a valid form, then you also assume that mathematics is consistent. Nothing to see here... Move along... Edit: In case some people missed it... In our logical framework, an inconsistent theory can prove both Φ and ¬Φ. Notice that you are using our logical framework; you are assuming it to be consistent. Yes. Assuming the framework to be con…
Did you see the first line? "That mathematics is thought to be consistent justifies the use of Proof by Contradiction." So the original author agrees with you. You're right too, though: most of the value of that post is in the first paragraph, which is a very concise presentation of an interesting (apparent) paradox.
Mathematics self-proves its own Consistency (contra Gödel et. al.)
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Re: Mathematics self-proves its own Consistency (contra Gödel et. al.)
#12weak theory? not strong enough for computer science, eh? strange ways to talk about mathematical theorems that are either true or not. let's see him define what he means by any of these terms lol
Re: Mathematics self-proves its own Consistency (contra Gödel et. al.)
#13Carl Hewitt is an interesting character [1] and I'm not really sure what to make of it. There are signs of a bright mind gone completely bonkers, and there are signs of someone being rejected for purely political (and not academic) reasons. Both have happened numerous times in the past which is why it's hard to tell. If someone more enlightened on the topic cared to comment about the nature of things, that'd be great…
Re: Mathematics self-proves its own Consistency (contra Gödel et. al.)
#14Earlier quoted context omitted.
The beginning of the proof starts with "Suppose to obtain a contradiction, that mathematics is inconsistent". From that assumption, they derived a contradiction, therefore the assumption can't be true, and math must be consistent.
> From that assumption, they derived a contradiction This is what I don't see. To have derived a contradiction, they should have shown: "mathematics is consistent". Instead they ended up showing (because Φ and ¬Φ): "mathematics is in consistent". Which is what they started out with. Where is the contradiction? Hmm.. while writing this out, I think I am starting to get the source of the confusion. "Mathematics is inco…
I elucidate it in another comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6119587
Re: Mathematics self-proves its own Consistency (contra Gödel et. al.)
#15In the first paragraph, he shows that if you allow proofs by contradiction, you can use them for every theory claimed to be inconsistent to show it indeed is consistent. This is so, because to prove by contradiction means to infer "not A" if from "A" follows "B" and "not B". So, if from "mathematics is inconsistent" follows "theorem A is true" and "theorem A is false", it follows that "mathematics is consistent". He claims that this shows consistency isn't rigorously proved in classical mathematics but is just assumed, since classical mathematics allows proofs by contradiction.
He then shows that from this consistency proof paradoxically follows the conclusion that mathematics is inconsistent, because this proof contradicts Goedel theorem "if mathematics is consistent, then it cannot infer its own consistency". He resolves the contradiction of Goedels proof by his proof by restricting the logical system in which they are done to exclude self-referential sentences.
Then, and I think this is really the gist of this work of his, he goes on to describe an approach that tries to somehow reduce the bad impact of including inconsistencies in the logical system, instead of trying to completely eliminate inconsistencies, as it was the goal traditionally.
Re: Mathematics self-proves its own Consistency (contra Gödel et. al.)
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
Did you see the first line? "That mathematics is thought to be consistent justifies the use of Proof by Contradiction." So the original author agrees with you. You're right too, though: most of the value of that post is in the first paragraph, which is a very concise presentation of an interesting (apparent) paradox.
I stopped reading after the first paragraph, so I don't know what the rest of it says. You're right, he does agree with me. But he presents it with a shroud of mystery. I was turned off by his attempt at demonstrating a paradox (a la alarming title "contra Gödel et. al.) and using word play to trick the reader into believing there is one. But there is no paradox.
Re: Mathematics self-proves its own Consistency (contra Gödel et. al.)
#171. It seems to me that if you assume that mathematics is inconsistent, you shouldn't then consider an inconsistency in the argument sufficient grounds to throw away the assumption. I suppose that means that I don't accept proof by contradiction in the case that the assumption is the inconsistency of mathematics.
2. Sanity Check: We can create known inconsistent systems, could the same logic prove that such inconsistent systems are consistent too? It seems to me that it could, am I wrong?
3. Supposing that mathematics did prove its own consistency, the fact that inconsistent systems can also prove their own consistency means that you can't take a proof of consistency to be strong evidence that the system is consistent.
4. Gödel didn't say that mathematics couldn't prove its own consistency, he just said that if it could it was unsound, which is a bit of a concern too.
Re: Mathematics self-proves its own Consistency (contra Gödel et. al.)
#18I quit after the first paragraph. If you assume "proof by contradiction" to be a valid form, then you also assume that mathematics is consistent. Nothing to see here... Move along... Edit: In case some people missed it... In our logical framework, an inconsistent theory can prove both Φ and ¬Φ. Notice that you are using our logical framework; you are assuming it to be consistent. Yes. Assuming the framework to be con…
Re: Mathematics self-proves its own Consistency (contra Gödel et. al.)
#19Indeed, most examples illustrating the Incompleteness Theorem involve self-reference. But, it seems hard to prove anything interesting in a system that precludes self-reference.
BTW, the Y Combinator is a way of adding self-reference to a non-self-referential formalism. And we're debating his argument here. Deep.