Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans • Hacker News Board

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#11

Post by Yuioup » Tue, Jul 23, 2013, 11:52 AM UTC

random42 wrote: post #9

Yuioup wrote: post #6

I have a question. It's pretty much a safe bet that the NSA runs Open Source Software. You can't do anything on the internet these days without using FLOSS. I'm not an expert in software licenses but can't GNU, Linus, Mozilla and all other Open Source contributers revoke the NSA's license to use their software? Surely Open Source licenses, just like any other license, can be revoked?

They they can't. Most (all?) of the opensource licenses do not have the "revokable clause" with them.

Ok. What happens if GNU decides to Fork the GPL v3 and call it "GPLv3+NSA Exception" and then relicense all their code to this new forked license?

A clause in this forked license is that the NSA can't use it.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#12

Post by davidjgraph » Tue, Jul 23, 2013, 11:54 AM UTC

Yuioup wrote: post #6

I have a question. It's pretty much a safe bet that the NSA runs Open Source Software. You can't do anything on the internet these days without using FLOSS. I'm not an expert in software licenses but can't GNU, Linus, Mozilla and all other Open Source contributers revoke the NSA's license to use their software? Surely Open Source licenses, just like any other license, can be revoked?

No, you can't revoke their license to use the software they already have, only them breaching the license would lose them the right to use it.

You could change the licensing so that they are not allowed to use future versions, but then that's no longer open source software. The open source definition[0] says:

"5. No Discrimination Against Persons or Groups The license must not discriminate against any person or group of persons."

The last issue you get with this idea is whether the NSA is the most unethical user of these pieces of software, I seriously doubt that is the case. Then you need to introduce clauses to ban everyone else who you feel doesn't behave in the manner you'd like. That'll be fun.

[0] http://opensource.org/osd-annotated

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#13

Post by unimpressive » Tue, Jul 23, 2013, 11:54 AM UTC

snitko wrote: post #10

I think this is fighting the symptom rather than the cause. NSA is a symptom of a much larger problem, which is taxes. If you didn't have them, you wouldn't have to demand those things in the first place, because all the money you'd give would be given voluntarily and to organizations that you choose and think are important.

>which is taxes

Let's start with the possible, shall we?

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#14

Post by gpcz » Tue, Jul 23, 2013, 11:54 AM UTC

Yuioup wrote: post #6

I have a question. It's pretty much a safe bet that the NSA runs Open Source Software. You can't do anything on the internet these days without using FLOSS. I'm not an expert in software licenses but can't GNU, Linus, Mozilla and all other Open Source contributers revoke the NSA's license to use their software? Surely Open Source licenses, just like any other license, can be revoked?

Clause 6 of the Open Source Definition ( http://opensource.org/osd-annotated ) states that open source software licenses cannot discriminate against fields of endeavor. That is, you can't state in your license that an abortion clinic / anti-abortion activists can't use the software and still call it open source.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#15

Post by johnsoft » Tue, Jul 23, 2013, 11:55 AM UTC

davidw wrote: post #8

Yuioup wrote: post #6

I have a question. It's pretty much a safe bet that the NSA runs Open Source Software. You can't do anything on the internet these days without using FLOSS. I'm not an expert in software licenses but can't GNU, Linus, Mozilla and all other Open Source contributers revoke the NSA's license to use their software? Surely Open Source licenses, just like any other license, can be revoked?

It's not open source if you specify who can and cannot use it. There was some bit of software years ago that had a clause like "no neonazis may use this software", and it got DQ'ed from Debian because that made it not free software. It's a bit like free speech: you really want to be very, very careful about limiting what people can say.

That reminds me of this blog post – http://dev.hasenj.org/post/3272592502/ibm-and-its-minions

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#16

Post by keithpeter » Tue, Jul 23, 2013, 11:56 AM UTC

icantthinkofone wrote: post #4

nakedrobot2 wrote: post #2

This is something real, tangible, and valuable that we can all actually do. All of this month I have felt powerless. This is something within everyone's power to do, and it can definitely help start the ball rolling back the way it came. It is pretty unfortunate that there is such a short window of time in which this information can be disseminated. I can imagine if there were a bit more time, this could really sprea…

Yeah! That'll work! Just like the Occupy movement. Will there be beer?

Well now, I live in the UK.

We don't have a written constitution, so the Powers That Be don't have to hack the legal system in quite the same way as as they do in the US (secret courts, secret injunctions, requirements for industry leaders to deny activity &c).

However, we have absolutely no oversight and no way to gain oversight of the agencies that purport to be acting for our protection. It is difficult even to find out how much we are paying for these agencies. As our Prime Minister has recently demonstrated, our elective representatives have very little understanding of how the Internet actually works. There is a cross party consensus that the 'legal framework' is adequate. Maybe it is, but we don't know, and have no way of knowing.

So I'd suggest taking what action you can within your system, because at least you have some avenues for change.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#17

Post by snitko » Tue, Jul 23, 2013, 11:57 AM UTC

unimpressive wrote: post #13

snitko wrote: post #10

I think this is fighting the symptom rather than the cause. NSA is a symptom of a much larger problem, which is taxes. If you didn't have them, you wouldn't have to demand those things in the first place, because all the money you'd give would be given voluntarily and to organizations that you choose and think are important.

>which is taxes Let's start with the possible, shall we?

I agree. Let's use Bitcoin. It's possible right here today and you don't give anyone a cut.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#18

Post by davidjgraph » Tue, Jul 23, 2013, 11:58 AM UTC

Yuioup wrote: post #11

random42 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They they can't. Most (all?) of the opensource licenses do not have the "revokable clause" with them.

Ok. What happens if GNU decides to Fork the GPL v3 and call it "GPLv3+NSA Exception" and then relicense all their code to this new forked license? A clause in this forked license is that the NSA can't use it.

That's an addition, not an exception. An exception would say "you must the GPL, unless you are/are doing xyz, in which case you can use abc license". You are saying "you can use the GPL, unless you are/are doing xyz, in which case you can't". That clause cannot legally be inserted in the GPL.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#19

Post by rb2e » Tue, Jul 23, 2013, 12:06 PM UTC

The NSA is the heart of the intelligence gathering apparatus of the US Military Industrial Complex. Like it or not, this bill will pass either tomorrow or another day, tacked on to another bill. It is strategic to the military and the country.

There is no way in hell, this bill will not pass. You can scream, occupy the streets, protest, do whatever but it will not change a thing. It will go through.

The US military Industrial Complex is vast. It lobby’s hard. To vote against it is to be called “un-American”- you know its BS but the talking heads will say it. Its powerful but that isn’t the point of this post.

Truthfully, our governments have been spying on us for a long time. My country, the UK was reading the mail and telegrams long before the US. Then it was listening and recording phone calls. This is just a step up. As technology increased capabilities, the net has grown wider. From ECHELON to this.

Civil liberties does not mean anything to them as the mindset has stayed the same no matter how much you may scream or complain, realistically it will not change a thing because at the end of the day, the country will have enemies and it needs an intelligence gathering capability. It won’t give a damn about our rights as it tries to secure itself.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#20

Post by raverbashing » Tue, Jul 23, 2013, 12:07 PM UTC

Yuioup wrote: post #6

I have a question. It's pretty much a safe bet that the NSA runs Open Source Software. You can't do anything on the internet these days without using FLOSS. I'm not an expert in software licenses but can't GNU, Linus, Mozilla and all other Open Source contributers revoke the NSA's license to use their software? Surely Open Source licenses, just like any other license, can be revoked?

Really, this is not the way to go

And besides, how would you audit it?!