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Open-Mindedness [video]

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Re: Open-Mindedness [video]

#11

Post by trapper »

qbit wrote: post #6
trapper wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Researchers are determining whether consciousness is a by-product of brain activity. Projects like blue brain aim to make this question something we can answer. Can you expand on what assumptions we make that are in no way provable?

Can we ever prove that someone or something is conscious and not just mimicking consciousness extremely well?

If there is no practical difference between artificial and real consciousness, the simplest answer is to conclude that consciousness derives from a specific neuron structure.

Re: Open-Mindedness [video]

#12

Post by dasil003 »

rms wrote: post #9
qbit wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we ever prove that someone or something is conscious and not just mimicking consciousness extremely well?

There's no difference. http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/04/zombies.html

Great read, but irrelevant. The difficulty here is in determining what it means to "act conscious". We can agree that consciousness exerts influence on the world without knowing how to measure that influence exactly.

Re: Open-Mindedness [video]

#13

Post by trapper »

dasil003 wrote: post #12
rms wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no difference. http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/04/zombies.html

Great read, but irrelevant. The difficulty here is in determining what it means to "act conscious". We can agree that consciousness exerts influence on the world without knowing how to measure that influence exactly.

This sounds like mysticism wrapped up in psychology. If there is no measurable difference between two "beings", one a copy of the other but implemented in silicon, what would your conclusion be? Surely if consciousness is anything magical this will be impossible.

Re: Open-Mindedness [video]

#14

Post by dasil003 »

trapper wrote: post #13
dasil003 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great read, but irrelevant. The difficulty here is in determining what it means to "act conscious". We can agree that consciousness exerts influence on the world without knowing how to measure that influence exactly.

This sounds like mysticism wrapped up in psychology. If there is no measurable difference between two "beings", one a copy of the other but implemented in silicon, what would your conclusion be? Surely if consciousness is anything magical this will be impossible.

That's way off base. You're not understanding my argument. Nobody said anything about magic.

The point is how can you ever verify that two beings react exactly the same to all stimuli? How are you determining "no measurable difference"? Setting aside the fact that silicon is measurably different from neural tissue, you still aren't any closer to answering the question "does the machine experience consciousness the same way I do as a result of its function?"

Re: Open-Mindedness [video]

#15

Post by rms »

dasil003 wrote: post #14
trapper wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like mysticism wrapped up in psychology. If there is no measurable difference between two "beings", one a copy of the other but implemented in silicon, what would your conclusion be? Surely if consciousness is anything magical this will be impossible.

That's way off base. You're not understanding my argument. Nobody said anything about magic. The point is how can you ever verify that two beings react exactly the same to all stimuli? How are you determining "no measurable difference"? Setting aside the fact that silicon is measurably different from neural tissue, you still aren't any closer to answering the question "does the machine experience consciousness the sa…

You're talking about qualia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

Let's just pretend that we run all the arguments for and against qualia from that article against each other and declare us all losers in advance.

Re: Open-Mindedness [video]

#16

Post by trapper »

dasil003 wrote: post #14
trapper wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like mysticism wrapped up in psychology. If there is no measurable difference between two "beings", one a copy of the other but implemented in silicon, what would your conclusion be? Surely if consciousness is anything magical this will be impossible.

That's way off base. You're not understanding my argument. Nobody said anything about magic. The point is how can you ever verify that two beings react exactly the same to all stimuli? How are you determining "no measurable difference"? Setting aside the fact that silicon is measurably different from neural tissue, you still aren't any closer to answering the question "does the machine experience consciousness the sa…

You can run them through all manner of tests. Sense tests, logic tests, math, philosophy, reading, every experience can be compared and contrasted.

Now, assuming a large number of tests have been performed and there is a consensus they have no practical difference, why would you conclude that consciousness is not derived from brain structure?

Re: Open-Mindedness [video]

#18

Post by nop »

Confusion wrote: post #2

Some people have a mind that is so open that their brain has fallen out. I don't know the origins of the citation, but I love it.

"We should be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brain falls out." -- Richard Dawkins

(Hes got various versions attributed to him)

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