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Bolivian president's plane forced to divert over a rumor Snowden was on board

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Re: Bolivian president's plane forced to divert over a rumor Snowden was on board

#11
post #9

According to AP, it turns out Bolivia's president was not denied entry into France and Spain, officials say.[0] As to why Bolivia would make such a claim, they did not comment. [0] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-a...

Could it be that the US is trying to spin this by pressuring France and Spain to delete the radio record and say that Bolivia made it up? Do we know of any third-party pilots or ground stations who would have heard and recorded the radio comms?

No. In fact, we have only heard through Bolivian officials so far. Even the Austrians relied on the Bolivian statements.

Re: Bolivian president's plane forced to divert over a rumor Snowden was on board

#12
So now they've upped the ante for Snowden-transport; probably the only feasible solution would be a warship. Maybe the other option would be a chartered jet with in-air refueling, flying solely over international waters (or sovereign countries, like Russia and maybe China).

You can charter a military transport (capable of refueling) from a bunch of companies, like RUS Aviation. Actual refueling services are harder, probably would need to be a military, although there are a few operators of contract aerial refueling service (e.g. Omega) -- unfortunately they have big military contracts, usually with the US, and thus wouldn't be willing to participate. You could probably take a military transport, fill it with ferry tanks, and make a decent go at it, but the problem is most of the cheap-to-charter aircraft are old inefficient aircraft like the IL-76. I guess with new engines it wouldn't be horrible, but something like a 737 in ferry mode would be better. A 777-200ER or 777-200LR would probably be the best. A 747SP is the only thing I actually know how to charter which has crazy long range (7600nm), which is almost as much as the 777-200LR (which is new, and thus highly utilized). A 7600nm range aircraft is just enough to stay in Russian airspace and then come in through the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap, down the Atlantic, to Caracas. The total cost of that mission would be far less than the $23mm Ecuador was willing to give up, but well in excess of $1mm.

A warship would probably be a lot easier, although you'd probably want to go to the Russian Far East to avoid bottlenecks -- assuming a fifth rate power like Ecuador, there could easily be "this area closed due to a military exercise" or other tricks to block it otherwise.

Re: Bolivian president's plane forced to divert over a rumor Snowden was on board

#13
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could it be that the US is trying to spin this by pressuring France and Spain to delete the radio record and say that Bolivia made it up? Do we know of any third-party pilots or ground stations who would have heard and recorded the radio comms?

No. In fact, we have only heard through Bolivian officials so far. Even the Austrians relied on the Bolivian statements.

Unconfirmed audio (which was linked to in the Guardians live stream[1]): http://audioboo.fm/boos/1482009-bolivia-air-force-fuerza-aer...

[1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-a...

Re: Bolivian president's plane forced to divert over a rumor Snowden was on board

#14
Does any one else thing the US is cashing in a hell of a lot of diplomatic good will to get one single man?

Yeah, I get the US gov want Snowden, but this seems so over the top, like it almost feels personal. Has Snowden got something on Obama personally or something? I have never seen this scale of action from the US for a mere whistle blower. Bin Laden and his ilk, fine, I understand that that. But even though IMHO, the leaks show the USA to be very badly behaving, most countries dont seem to care that much. Internationally and diplomatically, it seems very quiet.

I dunno. But I do find the response strangely disproportionate.

Re: Bolivian president's plane forced to divert over a rumor Snowden was on board

#15
post #14

Does any one else thing the US is cashing in a hell of a lot of diplomatic good will to get one single man? Yeah, I get the US gov want Snowden, but this seems so over the top, like it almost feels personal. Has Snowden got something on Obama personally or something? I have never seen this scale of action from the US for a mere whistle blower. Bin Laden and his ilk, fine, I understand that that. But even though IMHO,…

>Has Snowden got something on Obama personally or something?

Probably yes. NSA spied on Obama in 2004

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-nsa-spied-on-barack-obama...

Re: Bolivian president's plane forced to divert over a rumor Snowden was on board

#16
post #14

Does any one else thing the US is cashing in a hell of a lot of diplomatic good will to get one single man? Yeah, I get the US gov want Snowden, but this seems so over the top, like it almost feels personal. Has Snowden got something on Obama personally or something? I have never seen this scale of action from the US for a mere whistle blower. Bin Laden and his ilk, fine, I understand that that. But even though IMHO,…

There's more to come. And Obama wants to make sure Snowden's the last one to ever try it. So it's about a lot more than trying to stop or get one single man.

Re: Bolivian president's plane forced to divert over a rumor Snowden was on board

#17
post #12

So now they've upped the ante for Snowden-transport; probably the only feasible solution would be a warship. Maybe the other option would be a chartered jet with in-air refueling, flying solely over international waters (or sovereign countries, like Russia and maybe China). You can charter a military transport (capable of refueling) from a bunch of companies, like RUS Aviation. Actual refueling services are harder, p…

Soon US allies will be detaining ships from the Bolivian Navy just to check if Snowden is aboard.

Re: Bolivian president's plane forced to divert over a rumor Snowden was on board

#18
post #14

Does any one else thing the US is cashing in a hell of a lot of diplomatic good will to get one single man? Yeah, I get the US gov want Snowden, but this seems so over the top, like it almost feels personal. Has Snowden got something on Obama personally or something? I have never seen this scale of action from the US for a mere whistle blower. Bin Laden and his ilk, fine, I understand that that. But even though IMHO,…

> But I do find the response strangely disproportionate.

It may be that the people directly involved are "overly invested" in the situation. Making mountains out of molehills because they don't have enough metaphorical distance from the events to realize how their actions are perceived by regular on-lookers. After all there is roughly $50B/yr on the line, a lot of people have a lot of money at risk.

Also, fantastic fodder for hollywood. I wouldn't blame Snowden one bit if after it all settles out, he figured out how to sell the rights to his story to hollywood for a couple of million dollars.

Re: Bolivian president's plane forced to divert over a rumor Snowden was on board

#19
post #16
post #14

Does any one else thing the US is cashing in a hell of a lot of diplomatic good will to get one single man? Yeah, I get the US gov want Snowden, but this seems so over the top, like it almost feels personal. Has Snowden got something on Obama personally or something? I have never seen this scale of action from the US for a mere whistle blower. Bin Laden and his ilk, fine, I understand that that. But even though IMHO,…

There's more to come. And Obama wants to make sure Snowden's the last one to ever try it. So it's about a lot more than trying to stop or get one single man.

Exactly. This is the modern-day equivalent of a public crucifixion: a warning that you never, ever want to do something like this yourself.

What's interesting--and a little disconcerting IMO--is that the public opinion of Snowden seems generally favorable. So the US .gov needs to attack him publicly while not making it TOO public because it is not generally a healthy thing for a government to move in opposition to its people. That's how "unrest" starts. Probably not with Snowden, but if it's the beginning of a trend... look out.

Re: Bolivian president's plane forced to divert over a rumor Snowden was on board

#20

At this point one has to ask the question: who's afraid of the big, bad USA? And the answer more and more seems to be "Everybody". From Putin emphasising that Snowden stops hurting "Our friends the Americans", to the whole of Western Europe succumbing to their outrageous demands, not to mention the reversal of Ecuadorian President's change of stance after a talk with Biden. Is this the States showing off it's true co…

It does give off the smell that the US thinks it rules the world, doesn't it? (Not that it hasn't been an unspoken idea in everyone's minds for the past 50 years, but it's still weird to see it played out in the open.)
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