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Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

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Re: Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

#11
This entire essay is about how other people perceive a certain thing in a more extreme matter than would be warranted by logic, but the author makes the mistake of using the same extremities in his essay, thus nullifying his own argument. (Did that make sense? If not, it basically means: he is saying "there are a lot of nutters who are angrily responding to discussions about creepers and harrassment", but he doesn't really define what a nutter is, and by calling them a random pejorative term since they are disagreeing with him, he is making a similarly extreme statement.)

Let us examine some of his statements to illustrate what I'm talking about:

"What I'm doing is questioning the disproportionate and, to be blunt, disturbed anger that arises over this particular subject." ← What do you mean by disproportionate? Disproportionate compared to what? Plus, 'disturbed anger' s kind of a tautology, people are usually disturbed when they are angry. I have a hard time visualising 'undisturbed anger'.

I'm questioning why the — pardon me — hysterical terms like "lynch mob" are so quickly brought to bear when this is the subject. ← Hysterical itself is an extreme term. Why is he using it without clearly illustrating what he means? Maybe some of the people who are angrily commenting have suffered through accusations of sexism that they felt were completely unwarranted. Or they could have psychological problems. We don't really know.

"I'm questioning why on some issues — say, race — incoherent basement-stinking fury is relegated to places like Stormfront, but when it comes to sex it's alarmingly close to the mainstream." ← Alternately, it might just you who thinks that the largely mainstream thought is basement-stinking, another unnecessarily pejorative term, probably relating to the basement-dwelling unwashed nerd stereotype

"I'm asking why is it that if I write about racism, truly nutty and racist response are fairly rare, but if I talk about sexual harassment or sexism, I can count on being classified as a "white knight" or "mangina" or "pink shirt" or homosexual or something." ← Well, but you are similarly accusing those who disagree with your views as having "basement-stinking" fury, right?

In general, I this article provides little logical meat to chew on and more of the same extreme-termed language that it claims to be against.

(H'm, not sure why I was downvoted on this. Can the downvoter comment?)

Re: Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

#13
If I am thinking of the same situations as the author, it goes something like this:

Person X experiences a completely mundane situation (a respectful but unwanted sexual advance in an elevator, overhearing a PG-13 discussion at a conference) and writes a blog post about it.

The initial response is an equal mix of "Hurray for you, Person X! You are the bravest person on Earth!" and "Wait, this is a completely ordinary and inoffensive situation."

Later, the person making the advance or having the conversation are fired from their jobs or questioned by the police, and the "wait, this is not a big deal" group of people become very upset.

Re: Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

#14
"creepy" is just a code word for "unattractive" or "awkward"

i've been called hot, sexy, and creepy in the same hour span on a night out.

speaking up in the conversation at the wrong time, or just having the wrong look on your face can be "creepy". staring off into space while thinking about code? watch out, you could be creeping someone out. overhear something and decide to but in with a "hey i think i know what you're talking about..." - watch out. potential creeper.

it is a word that is rapidly losing meaning due to massive overuse. i'm guessing a lot of people have been called 'creepy' before without knowing why (the accuser NEVER, EVER will tell you why, as it's usually a "feeling" and not a "fact") and that's why the accused are getting upset.

Re: Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

#15

Anytime someone uses the word "Creeper" it quickly identifies the person as a Millenial. It sounds passive-aggressive. The word is "Stalker" kids. A creeper is someone who creeps around at night.

So, the term for someone who behaves in a socially inappropriate and over-reaching way, but isn't literally stalking anyone is.... ?

Re: Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

#16
post #7

Because it is an attack on gender. Creepers and harassment are exceedingly rarely discussed in gender neutral ways- it is usually a man doing something to a woman, or sometimes a discussion of the reverse. It is not often both in a neutral way. Additionally, the behaviour are things that a lot of people still do. Whereas with racism, to use the author's example, might draw the same ire (and it does in certain cases)…

You were doing so well until you made a sweeping generalisation about why men are different to women ("testosterone filled to constantly chase women"). The differences between men's and womens sexuality can be put down to a number of things:

1. Women being pressured to follow old ideals how they should behave. (i.e. fear of being a 'slut')

2. Women also feeling pressured to make themselves sexually available and attractive by the media.

3. The perception pepetuated in the media to men and especially geeks that everybody is having more sex than them . This results in a kind of angry justification for bad behaviour that the world is stacked against them and in favour of that douchebag jock from high school.

You will notice that none of these reasons are set in stone, we can change them. Sexual politics does not have to stay this way.

One more thing: Your statement that 50% of the population has done the behaviour in question seems a bit over the top and you seem to be almost implying that it's inevitable. If that were the case then it would be a horrendous statistic. Although I do think that a very high proportion of men have done something resembling harassment of a woman at some point in their life.

Re: Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

#17

Anytime someone uses the word "Creeper" it quickly identifies the person as a Millenial. It sounds passive-aggressive. The word is "Stalker" kids. A creeper is someone who creeps around at night.

The blogger in question graduated Harvard Law in 1994, so it's pretty unlikely that he's a "Millenial".

Re: Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

#18
post #15

Anytime someone uses the word "Creeper" it quickly identifies the person as a Millenial. It sounds passive-aggressive. The word is "Stalker" kids. A creeper is someone who creeps around at night.

So, the term for someone who behaves in a socially inappropriate and over-reaching way, but isn't literally stalking anyone is.... ?

It's called stalking.

Re: Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

#19
post #7

Because it is an attack on gender. Creepers and harassment are exceedingly rarely discussed in gender neutral ways- it is usually a man doing something to a woman, or sometimes a discussion of the reverse. It is not often both in a neutral way. Additionally, the behaviour are things that a lot of people still do. Whereas with racism, to use the author's example, might draw the same ire (and it does in certain cases)…

I'd also like to add that the word "creeper" should be kept out of these discussions. It seems obvious that sexism is very common in United States computer culture. But the word "creepy", when used to describe an undesirable man, is every bit as derogatory as "fattie" or "slut" when applied to a woman. It's the kind of word that is used for character assasination.

As you say, it doesn't go well when you imply that every man in a large group is supporting sexist behavior. The proper way to handle this issue is to just be direct when someone is behaving inappropriately and not use ambiguous language:

"Don't touch girls who obviously don't want it - that is sexual harassment. Not cool."

"Stop treating this woman like a sex object in a social setting - it is inappropriate."

"Don't stare, it makes people uncomfortable."

One final thought which I haven't heard from anyone else: I think one thing that can make a lot of nerd guys angry when it comes to this kind of behavior, is that many less-than-socially-masterful guys observe that women may respond very negatively to behavior that other men get away with. How sexual harassment is handled by women is very dependent on the situation and instigating person. The exact same behavior which would be met with disgust and derision at a tech conference, could be considered flirtatious and hot if it came in the right tone of voice from a hot guy at a nightclub.

This is obviously no excuse for acting like an asshole in the tech community. But I think a lot of people severely underestimate the role that status, attractiveness and social skill has when it comes to these questions. The tech scene is not the only social environment where sexism and misogny occurs, but it is certainly the one with the highest concentration of men that can safely be shamed for it.

Re: Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

#20
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the term for someone who behaves in a socially inappropriate and over-reaching way, but isn't literally stalking anyone is.... ?

It's called stalking.

No. Stalking is a specific thing (for one, it has a specific subject) that is not what we're talking about here (generic behavior, amongst other differences). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking
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