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What is Happening in Brazil

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Re: What is Happening in Brazil

#11
post #8

I was reading the European Convention on Human Rights recently and I was surprised to see that Article 2 explicitly allows for states to kill people to quell rioting or insurrection: Article 2 – Right to life : 2. Deprivation of life shall not be regarded as inflicted in contravention of this article when it results from the use of force which is no more than absolutely necessary: : c. in action lawfully taken for th…

Are there instances where this has been applied with commentary? That would be interesting to read; just based on the raw text, it seems to me this is closer to "if you have an allergic reaction to the legal application of tear gas while rioting and die, it's not our fault" and less like "if you're protesting and we don't like it, we can and will shoot you, and it's legal."

Re: What is Happening in Brazil

#12
post #8

I was reading the European Convention on Human Rights recently and I was surprised to see that Article 2 explicitly allows for states to kill people to quell rioting or insurrection: Article 2 – Right to life : 2. Deprivation of life shall not be regarded as inflicted in contravention of this article when it results from the use of force which is no more than absolutely necessary: : c. in action lawfully taken for th…

Interesting. Maybe that explains why dictatorships actually signed it too.Is that only in the European version ?

Re: What is Happening in Brazil

#13

Sorry, but I call bs on this blog: "Feel Free To Kill Protesters", who said this? The author doesn't point any reference to confirm this quote, and I could not find it nowhere else.

- http://noticias.uol.com.br/cotidiano/ultimas-noticias/2013/0...

- http://g1.globo.com/sao-paulo/noticia/2013/06/apos-sugerir-m...

EDIT: You can see this in english here: http://frombrazil.blogfolha.uol.com.br/2013/06/14/fear-and-l... (search for "prosecutor")

Re: What is Happening in Brazil

#14
Politicians tend to become worse and worse thinking and seeing from experience that they can "get away with it". But in reality all this time, the population gets more and more frustrated, and it's only a matter of time before the population revolts.

So far the Brazilian politicians have been lucky that all these 1 million people haven't become violent and ask for their blood. Because to be honest, I think at least some of the corrupt leaders need to be punished severely, possibly even with the death penalty (like Ceausescu was in Romania).

It's really the only way they'll learn their lesson, and more importantly, future generations of politicians will know now to upset the population to the point where they'll revolt and ask for their execution. I'm not usually pro-death penalty, but if there's anyone deserving it, it's the oppressive/corrupt leaders that make millions of people suffer through their ruling.

I definitely think the leaders intentionally abusing their own Constitution deserve the death penalty, because if they don't get that, then it's just an invitation for future leaders to abuse it. They swore to protect it and obey it, and there needs to be a way to force them to do just that. Otherwise what's the point? Imagine how different things would be in US, if politicians would fear death penalty if they abuse the Constitution, and keep passing unconstitutional laws.

I feel almost the same way about bankers who get away with their crimes. How are they supposed to learn their lesson if they aren't even threatened by prison time, even though they lost the pensions and deposits of millions of people? If they think they have the potential to earn tens of billions of hundreds of billions from risking the money of those people, they'll be much more inclined to do it if they only risk a couple of billion in penalty, and that's it.

The population is supposed to rectify these sort of abuses by the elite in a society. It's up to the population to ultimately decide how much of a punishment these people get, and if their "representatives" aren't up for it, then they need to change them, or at least scare them into applying their will.

Re: What is Happening in Brazil

#15

A somewhat different analysis of the current situation, reaching quite different conclusions: http://frombrazil.blogfolha.uol.com.br/2013/06/21/sao-paulo-... I hadn't seen until I read that that the original organizers of the protest, the MPL, have actually pulled out and denounced some of the current protestors due to them being coopted by right-wing groups. The blog post linked here makes a curious comment about "c…

I'm not sure the blog post you linked to reached any conclusions. It merely observed that not all of the hundreds of thousands of protestors are all of the same mind and political ideology. It would be pretty shocking if that were not the case. It ended wondering what would happen next, not declaring what would. Mass movements are unpredictable. So is life.

You chose one line out of context from the original article to highlight a "dog whistle to the right" in support of a dictatorship while the rest of the article is an impassioned plea for human rights.

Any time there's a mass movement, many different people will try to co-opt it. It doesn't mean that you should avoid supporting the movement. It means that it is very important to vocally support the parts of it that you do agree with, so that the parts you don't remain on the fringes.

Acting like the whole movement is suspect because of a few strikes me as very counter-productive.

Re: What is Happening in Brazil

#16
post #8

I was reading the European Convention on Human Rights recently and I was surprised to see that Article 2 explicitly allows for states to kill people to quell rioting or insurrection: Article 2 – Right to life : 2. Deprivation of life shall not be regarded as inflicted in contravention of this article when it results from the use of force which is no more than absolutely necessary: : c. in action lawfully taken for th…

You have to read "riot" in context of "insurrection." Armed uprisings are put down with lethal force. That's not inconsistent with western thought. E.g. its one of the first things the fledgling U.S. federal government did in response to a rebellion in Massachusetts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays'_Rebellion#Rebellion.

Vis-a-vis riots, read in the context of "insurrection" you might interpret it as referring to the kind of riots you see in say Bangladesh: labor strikes where people bomb things.

Re: What is Happening in Brazil

#17
post #6

A somewhat different analysis of the current situation, reaching quite different conclusions: http://frombrazil.blogfolha.uol.com.br/2013/06/21/sao-paulo-... I hadn't seen until I read that that the original organizers of the protest, the MPL, have actually pulled out and denounced some of the current protestors due to them being coopted by right-wing groups. The blog post linked here makes a curious comment about "c…

Your link isn't working for some reason. Keep in mind that it's common for governments and other political organizations to insert agitators for the purposes of attempting to discredit or change the message of a protest. Happens very frequently. Also there is a large contingent of people that just like rioting. IE: "Now could be your only chance to torch a police car"

The link works for me. For those who can't access:

http://web.archive.org/liveweb/frombrazil.blogfolha.uol.com....

Re: What is Happening in Brazil

#18
post #14

Politicians tend to become worse and worse thinking and seeing from experience that they can "get away with it". But in reality all this time, the population gets more and more frustrated, and it's only a matter of time before the population revolts. So far the Brazilian politicians have been lucky that all these 1 million people haven't become violent and ask for their blood. Because to be honest, I think at least s…

> future generations of politicians will know now to upset the population to the point where they'll revolt and ask for their execution.

I agree with your post, except for this. If history has shown us anything, it's that they never learn.

Re: What is Happening in Brazil

#19

A somewhat different analysis of the current situation, reaching quite different conclusions: http://frombrazil.blogfolha.uol.com.br/2013/06/21/sao-paulo-... I hadn't seen until I read that that the original organizers of the protest, the MPL, have actually pulled out and denounced some of the current protestors due to them being coopted by right-wing groups. The blog post linked here makes a curious comment about "c…

I'm not sure the blog post you linked to reached any conclusions. It merely observed that not all of the hundreds of thousands of protestors are all of the same mind and political ideology. It would be pretty shocking if that were not the case. It ended wondering what would happen next, not declaring what would. Mass movements are unpredictable. So is life. You chose one line out of context from the original article…

I'm not intending to say that the whole movement is suspect; more that I'm wary of the particular linked blog post's analysis of the movement and what its aims are / should be.

Re: What is Happening in Brazil

#20
post #18
post #14

Politicians tend to become worse and worse thinking and seeing from experience that they can "get away with it". But in reality all this time, the population gets more and more frustrated, and it's only a matter of time before the population revolts. So far the Brazilian politicians have been lucky that all these 1 million people haven't become violent and ask for their blood. Because to be honest, I think at least s…

> future generations of politicians will know now to upset the population to the point where they'll revolt and ask for their execution. I agree with your post, except for this. If history has shown us anything, it's that they never learn.

Then let them eat fate :P
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