Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America • Hacker News Board

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#11

Post by grey-area » Thu, Jun 20, 2013, 1:00 PM UTC

alan_cx wrote: post #5

What I wonder is at what point words like stasi become reasonable or acceptable. OK, I don't like what is happening, and almost day by day thing happen that I feel are pushing the west, led by the US, more and more towards something highly controlled and not in any way free. Liberty is slowly being eroded, and I genuinely feel that is a true statement objectively. Right now, words like stasi, fascist, etc are an exag…

The Stasi were the secret police for Eastern Germany, nothing to do with the Nazis as far as I know.

The surveillance undertaken by the Stasi wasn't really as extensive as (for example) collecting all phone records for the entire country, so in some ways the US has surpassed the Stasi in surveillance, while in others obviously it's nowhere near the same situation (e.g. in-person surveillance and recruiting ordinary citizens as spies), and in other areas it's similar - secret courts and sweeping warrants etc.

I suppose the point of the comparison is to shock, and then perhaps point out that there are some areas in which the current situation is worse than it was in Eastern Germany.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#12

Post by zwieback » Thu, Jun 20, 2013, 1:01 PM UTC

alan_cx wrote: post #5

What I wonder is at what point words like stasi become reasonable or acceptable. OK, I don't like what is happening, and almost day by day thing happen that I feel are pushing the west, led by the US, more and more towards something highly controlled and not in any way free. Liberty is slowly being eroded, and I genuinely feel that is a true statement objectively. Right now, words like stasi, fascist, etc are an exag…

For me it would be when people disappear. Being spied on is one thing but being afraid of getting arrested is another.

I grew up in Western Germany and visited the East several times. Living in the US now I have to say that it feels an order of magnitude "freer" than either of the Germanies of my youth. However, I'm very concerned about the NSA thing.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#13

Post by jes » Thu, Jun 20, 2013, 1:06 PM UTC

alan_cx wrote: post #5

What I wonder is at what point words like stasi become reasonable or acceptable. OK, I don't like what is happening, and almost day by day thing happen that I feel are pushing the west, led by the US, more and more towards something highly controlled and not in any way free. Liberty is slowly being eroded, and I genuinely feel that is a true statement objectively. Right now, words like stasi, fascist, etc are an exag…

You might wish to read "The Ominous Parallels" by Leonard Peikoff.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#14

Post by Spooky23 » Thu, Jun 20, 2013, 1:09 PM UTC

The fact that these conversations are happening is indicative that we do not have a Stasi.

We have serious problems, as evidence by the unwillingness of any member of Congress to really speak out on the issue, and the sheer scope and reach power of this poorly regulated surveillance regime.

There's no gulag archipelago, but the tools used by repressive totalitarian regimes are being built for other purposes, and many of us believe that these tools are not compatible with a free and democratic society.

Let's focus on the real and stop running down the slippery slope.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#15

Post by swombat » Thu, Jun 20, 2013, 1:10 PM UTC

adaml_623 wrote: post #6

I've got an answer for all the people who say, "I've got nothing to hide". That might be true but you would have to be naive to think that the information that could be gathered from these NSA activities would not be misused by people. Imagine an up and coming politician. Squeaky clean but was friends with a few people who got prosecuted for drug dealing. Those useful NSA phone records could easily lead to the press…

The second problem with "nothing to hide" is that it's really "nothing to hide based on today's laws". Laws change. Things become illegal or looked down upon that were previously just fine. What you did with a peaceful conscience today could be used to throw you in jail in 20 years.

The third problem is that due to the complexity of the penal code, this is already the case. You have already done stuff in the last 10 years, that you didn't think was illegal, but somewhere in the tens of thousands of pages of the penal code someone can find a reason to throw you in jail if they have enough information about you. As Richelieu put it, "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him." - the NSA has billions of lines about you. They can hang you a million times over.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#16

Post by jsmcgd » Thu, Jun 20, 2013, 1:20 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #3

For once I'll avoid Godwin's law and link instead to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_58 > The article was used for the imprisonment and execution of many prominent people, as well as multitudes of nonnotable innocents. (...) Article 58 of the Russian SFSR Penal Code was put in force on 25 February 1927 to arrest those suspected of counter-revolutionary activities. So the point is that even in Soviet Russia…

Godwin's Law, or people's interpretation of it, has a lot to answer for. It's perfectly acceptable to make comparisons to the Nazis if it's relevant to where a conversation is at, at a particular moment. Not only is acceptable, it should also be encouraged. The most valuable thing to emerge from World War Two was the anti-blueprint for society. Let's not make this taboo merely for the sake of falling foul of some internet meme.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#17

Post by _ak » Thu, Jun 20, 2013, 1:22 PM UTC

zwieback wrote: post #12

alan_cx wrote: post #5

What I wonder is at what point words like stasi become reasonable or acceptable. OK, I don't like what is happening, and almost day by day thing happen that I feel are pushing the west, led by the US, more and more towards something highly controlled and not in any way free. Liberty is slowly being eroded, and I genuinely feel that is a true statement objectively. Right now, words like stasi, fascist, etc are an exag…

For me it would be when people disappear. Being spied on is one thing but being afraid of getting arrested is another. I grew up in Western Germany and visited the East several times. Living in the US now I have to say that it feels an order of magnitude "freer" than either of the Germanies of my youth. However, I'm very concerned about the NSA thing.

As they say in Germany, "Wer sich nicht bewegt, spürt seine Fesseln nicht." (who doesn't move doesn't feel his manacles)

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#18

Post by adventured » Thu, Jun 20, 2013, 1:24 PM UTC

zwieback wrote: post #12

alan_cx wrote: post #5

What I wonder is at what point words like stasi become reasonable or acceptable. OK, I don't like what is happening, and almost day by day thing happen that I feel are pushing the west, led by the US, more and more towards something highly controlled and not in any way free. Liberty is slowly being eroded, and I genuinely feel that is a true statement objectively. Right now, words like stasi, fascist, etc are an exag…

For me it would be when people disappear. Being spied on is one thing but being afraid of getting arrested is another. I grew up in Western Germany and visited the East several times. Living in the US now I have to say that it feels an order of magnitude "freer" than either of the Germanies of my youth. However, I'm very concerned about the NSA thing.

Well then we better be extra vigilant in pushing back against this sort of thing:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/grand-jury-rejects...

Cases like that can be dangerous trial balloons.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#19

Post by adaml_623 » Thu, Jun 20, 2013, 1:25 PM UTC

swombat wrote: post #15

adaml_623 wrote: post #6

I've got an answer for all the people who say, "I've got nothing to hide". That might be true but you would have to be naive to think that the information that could be gathered from these NSA activities would not be misused by people. Imagine an up and coming politician. Squeaky clean but was friends with a few people who got prosecuted for drug dealing. Those useful NSA phone records could easily lead to the press…

The second problem with "nothing to hide" is that it's really "nothing to hide based on today's laws". Laws change. Things become illegal or looked down upon that were previously just fine. What you did with a peaceful conscience today could be used to throw you in jail in 20 years. The third problem is that due to the complexity of the penal code, this is already the case. You have already done stuff in the last 10…

I agree with you 100% but I'm trying to formulate an argument that works on people who really believe that there is no way that 'they' could ever break the law and will never do anything that might make 'someone' want to pick on them. I want to demonstrate to them that there are other people who are doing important things for society and those people need to be protected too.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#20

Post by adventured » Thu, Jun 20, 2013, 1:32 PM UTC

adaml_623 wrote: post #6

I've got an answer for all the people who say, "I've got nothing to hide". That might be true but you would have to be naive to think that the information that could be gathered from these NSA activities would not be misused by people. Imagine an up and coming politician. Squeaky clean but was friends with a few people who got prosecuted for drug dealing. Those useful NSA phone records could easily lead to the press…

That refrain, which is based in fear, requires but one simple response: nothing to hide, according to whom?

That invalidates their entire premise instantly, by pointing out that it is not their judgment that matters as to whether they have anything to hide.

People say that they have nothing to hide - in response to things like the NSA spying scandals - because they're terrified of confrontation. To say almost anything else is to challenge the government's authority, to say to them: you have no right to violate my constitutional rights and I refuse to accept it.

When you see someone cowering in fear behind that statement, remember what their mental state of mind likely is and re-approach how you discuss the spying with them, otherwise you'll find they will just turtle. It's far easier for most people to back down from confrontation than to challenge such extreme authority (the US Govt.).