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Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

nytimes.com

11–20 of 35 posts

Re: Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

#11
Great find! Scary how it's still so relevent...

"High-tech companies save money by shunning most midcareer programmers and focusing their hiring on new or recent college graduates, who are cheaper and can work lots of overtime."

Not just high-tech companies, almost everyone. So screw 'em. If they're too cheap to value the contributions of their employees and don't want to treat them like human beings, they why would you want to work there?

"And the skills issue is a red herring; any competent programmer, if given a chance to learn on the job, can become productive in a new software technology within a few weeks."

Exactly. Like almost anyone here with any drive at all already knows.

If I didn't know better, this doesn't seem like a journal article at all. Seems more like a commercial for starting your own. Still spot on 11 years later.

Re: Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

#12

"Employers justify shunting aside midcareer programmers on the ground that they lack skills in the latest software languages." I don't see what's wrong with that. Clearly, to command a higher salary, an employee has to offer more than someone who gets paid less. And if in fact that employee has less to offer than a more junior person, because their skills are obsolete, it's even more of a reason to let them go. I gue…

An experienced programmer can learn a lot about a new language in a relatively short period of time. A lot of times, the language isn't the issue, understanding the system is the issue.

So I don't think it's the first thing I would think of when deciding to hire someone. If an engineer has worked on cool things, and done cool things, I wouldn't care if they didn't know X.

Re: Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

#13

"Employers justify shunting aside midcareer programmers on the ground that they lack skills in the latest software languages." I don't see what's wrong with that. Clearly, to command a higher salary, an employee has to offer more than someone who gets paid less. And if in fact that employee has less to offer than a more junior person, because their skills are obsolete, it's even more of a reason to let them go. I gue…

The article misrepresents what I see happening. In larger companies engineers are treated as a commodity so salaries stay low when compared to a similar level of experience in management, sales or marketing. People leave engineering to pursue higher paying opportunities. In tech companies management sales and marketing are mostly comprised of people who were once engineers. I have worked with many people and usually those in their 40's and 50's that stay in engineering stay because they like it and are willing to sacrifice higher compensation. As a group i believe they are more competent. I have interviewed many recent college grads that could barley articulate what a virtual function was in C++ or Java and how or why you would use it. These concepts are more than 30's years old and have been in common use in software development for the past 20 years.

Re: Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

#14
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is from 1998, Java was 3 years old.

Does that also mean the statistics provided by the author are meaningless since they are 10 years old and closely tied to the dot-com boom?

Since they're backward looking statistics they actually track what happened before the dot com boom. They still might not be relevant given the current marketplace, of course.

Re: Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

#15
At the time though the things that were happening with the internet were all largely new concepts. New graduates who had been studying heavily web based technologies would have had the advantage over an older person who may have come from a DOS background.

These day's although still evolving I would say web based technologies are a lot more stable.

Re: Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

#16

"Employers justify shunting aside midcareer programmers on the ground that they lack skills in the latest software languages." I don't see what's wrong with that. Clearly, to command a higher salary, an employee has to offer more than someone who gets paid less. And if in fact that employee has less to offer than a more junior person, because their skills are obsolete, it's even more of a reason to let them go. I gue…

I don't see anything wrong with that either, but I think the quote is phrasing it slightly wrong. Here's how I would write that sentence:

"Employers justify shunting aside mid-career programmers on the ground that they lack the motivation to develop skills in, among other thing, the latest software languages."

The problem is that this lack of motivation won't show up until the programmer is midcareer.

When they graduated from college/trade school/etc, they were likely trained in some the latest technologies and languages. Based solely on skill set, they looked motivated enough; maybe not as much as some, but certainly more so than the mid-career programmer was just kicked to the curb for not knowing anything from more recent than five years ago.

But they stagnated, because they really weren't motivated or interested in what they learned beyond the predictable payout it guaranteed.. They went to school because they needed that structure to force themselves to learn material they were told would be highly lucrative. Learning more about their field was hard and not at all satisfying, so they made the gamble that they could coast on what they learned in school until retirement.

Unfortunately, technology moves fast enough that their gamble blew up in their face. They wouldn't be able to see it coming either, because the structure they embed themselves in to increase the odds of their gamble would be equally phobic of new advances. The realization would happen suddenly, likely due to an internal shake-up either by new management or the same old technology no longer being good enough.

The problem is that a course in the hot new language du jour isn't enough. The problem is that their lack of motivation is now painfully obvious to everyone. They aren't the least bit curious about new advancements, otherwise they would know something about them. The knowledge they get from the training course will inevitably become obsolete again in another few years, because they'll never supplement or expand upon it.

This is the real reason for the shunting, as I see it. And I, like paulbaumgart, see nothing wrong with it.

Re: Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

#17

"Employers justify shunting aside midcareer programmers on the ground that they lack skills in the latest software languages." I don't see what's wrong with that. Clearly, to command a higher salary, an employee has to offer more than someone who gets paid less. And if in fact that employee has less to offer than a more junior person, because their skills are obsolete, it's even more of a reason to let them go. I gue…

Practically, it means there is a lot wrong with programming as a career choice -- for a large number of students, it will have been a poor investment. I don't see much reason to sympathize with the employers, either.

Re: Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

#18

"Employers justify shunting aside midcareer programmers on the ground that they lack skills in the latest software languages." I don't see what's wrong with that. Clearly, to command a higher salary, an employee has to offer more than someone who gets paid less. And if in fact that employee has less to offer than a more junior person, because their skills are obsolete, it's even more of a reason to let them go. I gue…

Experienced programmers have many skills aside from "the latest language".

The approach of jettisoning older, more skilled programmers because they cost more and don't know languages with the latest bells and whistles is similar to the general approach of selling poor quality or defective products of all sorts which happen to have the latest marketing bells and whistles.

It is rational for companies to do if they can get away with it. It is rational for us to punish companies harshly for doing if we can.

Re: Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

#19
post #15

At the time though the things that were happening with the internet were all largely new concepts. New graduates who had been studying heavily web based technologies would have had the advantage over an older person who may have come from a DOS background. These day's although still evolving I would say web based technologies are a lot more stable.

Now that's funny. "new concepts". "DOS". Its actually quite amusing for hackers in my age group to watch the kids "discover" ancient programming history (again (and again (...)))
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